The Paladin killed someone...what to do?

[Plane Sailing]

I recommend that anyone who thinks that the Paladin in the above example did evil does NOT go and read this webcomic here http://thunt.comicgen.com/d/20050826.html - that is the introductory page, DON'T read on from there.

I have to issue this warning to make sure that nobody's head explodes. Or anything.

(I'm glad that Goblins advertised on ENworld, otherwise I'd never have found another nice webcomic to keep track of!)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Heh...THAT's a badass Paladin, no doubt!

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

I recommend that anyone who thinks that the Paladin in the above example did evil does NOT go and read this webcomic here http://thunt.comicgen.com/d/20050826.html - that is the introductory page, DON'T read on from there.

I have to issue this warning to make sure that nobody's head explodes. Or anything.

(I'm glad that Goblins advertised on ENworld, otherwise I'd never have found another nice webcomic to keep track of!)

Well at least that Paladin made a nice speech that told us why he was killing the boy...

While I still think that IN THIS CASE (not every case), the Paladin could have done more (like detect evil), I do not have a big problem with his actions.

At this point, I believe that we have the Mercygivers vs. the Smitenators, so everyone bring their most powerful Paladin and we will settle this the old fashioned way...

BATTLE ROYALE

 

[Jim Hague]

Like I said - it's not the 'smiting of evil', it's the fact that the paladin:

1) Killed a helpless opponent (thereby losing any justification in the LG alignment property of 'mercy').

2) Has a pattern of this behavior and has committed similar acts in the past, according to the DM.

That being said, yeah. Time for a test of faith. Time for some fallout and consequences. Time to take this little incident and turn it into a roleplaying opportunity for the character. What happens when the people who witnessed this start talking and rumors spread? How long until evil beings hear of it?

Far, far too many (as evidenced by some responses on this thread) seem to think playing a paladin means you're another sword jock with Kewl Powerz (tm). Paladins, by their nature, are held to a higher standard - by society, by their religion, by their diety. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch - this wasn't a killing in combat, it was murder, plain and simple.

 

[Numion]

Like I said - it's not the 'smiting of evil', it's the fact that the paladin:

1) Killed a helpless opponent (thereby losing any justification in the LG alignment property of 'mercy').

2) Has a pattern of this behavior and has committed similar acts in the past, according to the DM.

We're here debating about the Paladin losing his powers. They can be lost three way:

1) Gross violation of the Code

2) Committing an Evil act

3) Ceasing to be Lawful Good

I can now summarize why the Paladins actions were not any of those three (without using straw men, I hope, but RAW):

1) The code is silent on mercy, but calls for punishing those who harm innocents. The Paladin punished a Halfling he had ascertained to be 'in' on the attack. So he complied with his code (which still is silent on mercy, BTW ) Check.

2) He meted out some Paladin-type punishment on a creature engaging in evil activity. Punishing evil is not evil. Hence it was not an evil act. Check.

3) Not showing mercy might not be a [Good] action, but it isn't [Evil] either. I direct you to PHB alignment section which states that Alhandra the LG Paladin fights evil 'without mercy'. Check. EDIT: Just to make my case fool-proof: one neutral act doesn't shift your alignment from Lawful Good.

Because those are the conditions you loose your P0WRZ with, and none of them were fulfilled, it stands that the Paladin keeps his P0WRZ. We cool, Jim?

 

[Demmero]

Remember- Paladins use Detect Evil at will as the spell (PHB p44). That, friends, takes time.

Can't argue with logic like that. Waste 3 rounds (18 seconds) to make sure I'm not killing a coerced, non-evil being or enjoy the warm, delicious feeling and delectably wonderful sound of snapping his spine right now? 18 looooooooong, boring seconds of Detect Evil (Gee, why don't they give paladins a much kewler power like....oh, maybe Smite All!) or brighten my day now with the crisp, clean sound of bones breaking?

*SNAP!*

Yeah, that's paladin behavior.

And I never thought of it before, but Cartman on South Park is a paladin! Kewl!!!

 

[Demmero]

I agree with you. If the case of the squeezed Halfling was taken in the context of the typical day in the life of a D&D Paladin, it isn't that serious.

And since I'm tired of arguing, I'll agree too. If the case of the squeezed halfling was taken in the context of the typical day in the life of a D&D Chaotic Evil half-orc barbarian, it isn't that serious.

 

[Old Fezziwig]

2) He meted out some Paladin-type punishment on a creature engaging in evil activity. Punishing evil is not evil. Hence it was not an evil act. Check.

Er, snapping the neck of a helpless halfling is not evil? What about the methods, Numion? I would argue that snapping someone's neck isn't really "paladin-type punishment" — you ever read about Galahad snapping someone's neck in Arthurian legend (I would argue that he's one of the primary prototypes for the D&D paladin)? Sometimes how you get there is just as important as where you're going.

 

[Numion]

Can't argue with logic like that. Waste 3 rounds (18 seconds) to make sure I'm not killing a coerced, non-evil being or enjoy the warm, delicious feeling and delectably wonderful sound of snapping his spine right now? 18 looooooooong, boring seconds of Detect Evil (Gee, why don't they give paladins a much kewler power like....oh, maybe Smite All!) or brighten my day now with the crisp, clean sound of bones breaking?

Detect Evil doesn't tell you for sure that the creature itself is [Evil]. It tells if the creature is [Evil] or that it has an [Evil] spell on him. So the Paladin cannot be sure even after detecting evil. But I'd say it would be enough for me.

The Paladin in the example certainly did some stupid things, but nothing warranting P0WRZ (god I love that word ) yoinkage.

 

[Numion]

Er, snapping the neck of a helpless halfling is not evil? What about the methods, Numion?

Snapping the neck of a helpless prisoner, like, um, what happens to murderers who are hanged? Now I'm gonna be called for using straw-men again, but IMO it's no different. Killing helpless prisoners is quite ok if they are receiving the friggin' death penalty. That's what happened here.

Now let me backtrack a bit and admit that you do have a very good point here. Strangling is not actually a very 'Paladinly' method. Too personal, usually a method in personal crimes of passion or rage. While it was justified in this case, it might look to those not 'in the know' that the Paladin is a raging maniac, and tarnish the reputation of the whole lot!