The Planes & the Prime Material

[Joe Sala]

I love the Planes concept in D&D, I really do. Planescape is my favourite AD&D campaign setting, and even before it I used them for High Fantasy stories. But we must admit that they're a wonderful castle built on sand.

After reading the three marvelous boxed sets describing the Outer Planes, one question resounded in my mind: why does everyone care so much about the Prime Material planes? Why are them so important? In fact, why do they even exist?

In the Outer Planes there are towns, villages and castles. There's plenty of agricultural and industrial production, and the creatures are incredibly powerful. In fact these Planes are so vast that the technolohical and artistic output made by the planars should really dwarf that produced in all the Material Planes combined. One genius living in Waterdeep has created one symphony? We have plenty of them in Arcadia! Your country produces thousands of magic swords per year? We have a factory that creates millions!

So, again, why is everyone, beginning with the gods, so concerned with Faerun or Ansalon?

(Yes, this is my first post )

 

[kensanata]

Without worshipers, they die

After reading the three marvelous boxed sets describing the Outer Planes, one question resounded in my mind: why does everyone care so much about the Prime Material planes? Why are them so important? In fact, why do they even exist?

If a power in the outer planes wants to grow stronger, it needs more souls. And the only source of new souls are the primes. Every power needs to do some recruiting on the primes or dwindle and die.

Actually, the powers don’t take as much interest in the goings-on of the Outer Planes as they do in the Prime Material (excepting the Blood Warriors). It seems they get their strength mainly from the worlds on that plane, sucking up energy from their worshipers there. Without this energy they’ll die - as much as an immortal can die. Getting a god killed ain’t easy, though, since first there couldn’t be a single worshiper left on a single prime-material world. (Not a simple task, eh?) Long be- fore it dies, a power weakens to the point where its body is cast out of the Outer Planes to drift in the Astral Plane. It might cling to life forever or it might fall into an immortal decay - and depart for the realm of some ultimate god. That’s not a fate most powers look for- ward to or allow, if they can help it. (‘Course, they’re used to being the biggest fish in the sea, so who can blame them?)

 

[Arkhandus]

Yup. And the Outer Planes need mortal souls to fill them and provide new recruits for their goals. The fiends will certainly keep trying to recruit mortals into their ranks or the Blood War, and the others wouldn't want the fiendish forces to build up too much to where one side or the other might actually win the Blood War, and then turn its mighty war machine against the other planes.

Also, there are a supposedly infinite number of Material Planes. The Outer Planes may be effectively infinite in size, but they wouldn't likely be populated by much if they weren't recruiting mortal souls from the myriad Material Planes.

 

[Tarek]

Well, that's the Planescape take on things.

Prior to Planescape, where the writers decided that the Planes were really just another way of saying "Forgotten Realms", it was very clearly understood that the Outer Planes weren't places for a casual vacation. These are the realms of the gods and powers, not meant for mortals to come a'picnicing. To survive in the Outer Planes, originally, you had to be a "native" of that plane (i.e. a deity, one of their servants, or the soul of a mortal) or be a fairly powerful mortal well bolstered with magic.

Even when adventuring in the Outer Planes, your real, physical body was unattended back on the prime material. It was only your soul and the 'essense' of your magical accoutrements that accompanied you to the Outer Planes.

Also, prior to 2e and Planescape, it was also well understood that gods and powers were the only source of clerical magic. PCs had to worship gods in order to get their clerical/paladin spells; even Druids had their gods.

Finally, there's a fundamental rule of D&D cosmology, which is that dead souls get to go to an afterlife, and that afterlife is going to be one of the outer planes.

Planescape messes with the whole thing, horribly. Planescape says "there's just plain mortal folks with no powers living in the Planes." Perhaps that works for, say, the Seven Heavens or Elysium, but it sure doesn't work for the Abyss or the Nine Hells. It is far too much of a stretch of the imagination to believe that there are any villages of "just plain mortal folks" living in the Abyss, effectively unmolested by demons. Call it fox in the henhouse? Hah! That's like delivering chickens, already trussed up and plucked free of feathers but still alive, to the fox!

The idea that gods weaken and disappear due to lack of followers is also a 2e Planescape conceit.

 

[dmccoy1693]

It is far too much of a stretch of the imagination to believe that there are any villages of "just plain mortal folks" living in the Abyss, effectively unmolested by demons. Call it fox in the henhouse? Hah! That's like delivering chickens, already trussed up and plucked free of feathers but still alive, to the fox!

I disagree. IMHO, I see it like how dragons exist and people still have money. Yea sure the big powerful beings of that plane are demons, but people find a way to adapt to the danger posed by them. Some die, some hide, some pledge to worship, etc. Besides, there may be powerful demon, but that doesn't mean that every being is as powerful as Orcus. There have to be CR 1/2 creatures on the plane.

 

[Tarek]

There are a near infinite number of demons. There are a finite number of mortals.
Demon Lords and demons are fickle.

Even the CR 1/2 creatures have advantages that the mortals do not, like the fact that they are demonic and therefore have all the demonic qualities.

This makes the mortals weaker than all the demons.

Chaotic Evil means doing whatever you want to those weaker than you.

Do the math.

 

[kenmarable]

If a power in the outer planes wants to grow stronger, it needs more souls. And the only source of new souls are the primes. Every power needs to do some recruiting on the primes or dwindle and die.

That's how I see it, too. The souls on the prime material plane are the fuel that powers the outer planes. Think of it metaphorically as the outer planes are the industrial countries, and the prime material are the oil-producing countries (gross oversimplification of course since there is overlap in real world, but you get the picture). The outer planes need the souls and they need to direct the beliefs of the prime worlds in their favor if they are to get the souls. So fiends try to create more evil in worlds so that more souls will wind up in their planes, etc.

 

[Shemeska]

The idea that gods weaken and disappear due to lack of followers is also a 2e Planescape conceit.

Actually it began as a 1e/2e transition FR conceit. Planescape took the idea and ran with it.

 

[gizmo33]

Actually it began as a 1e/2e transition FR conceit. Planescape took the idea and ran with it.

I remember it being proposed in a Dragon magazine article that IIRC was solidly in the 1E days.

 

[gizmo33]

But we must admit that they're a wonderful castle built on sand.

Must we? Sand (to use your metaphor) is at least a substance we know a lot more about than we know about how the outer planes work. Are there really souls in Arcadia inventing musical symphonies? Is it possible that being creative like that is something that only mortals can do. IRL a lot of bands write a few descent albums and then the rest of their stuff isn't as inspired. Maybe it's that way when you're 10,000 years old as well. And even if this isn't the case IRL, couldn't it be part of the DnD mythology. That way the creative actions on the Prime are of more significance, whereas the outer planes are just a warehouse for souls whose best creative days are behind them.

Then there's the issue of worshipper strength equating to deity power (as has already been mentioned).

Finally, there's the basic issue that comes up on all "simulationist" threads - which is just how complete you expect the DnD rules to be. There's no rules for nutrition, for instance. Yet I'm sure most DMs would handwave some sort of penalties if all your PC did was eat pretzels and drink soda every day of his life. The thing is that just because the DnD rules, which are designed for an adventure game, doesn't mention something doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the world.