D&D General The Player End Game Problem

[Charlaquin]

So Adam said one thing during session zero, but is now doing another in game play. To me that makes him either clueless or lying.

Did he? In your opening post you said he told you multiple times during session zero that he planned to get the neighboring human kingdom to fix everything for him. Sounds like that’s exactly what he’s trying to do now.

This is because he is going for the human kindgom must just auto win vs the evil elves in five seconds and game over. I guess he was thinking that he'd go "help" and the human kingdom would save the day, end the game and just hand the crown to his character.

I mean, unless my suspicion that he thought session zero was planning for a short prologue instead of the whole campaign is correct, he probably doesn’t want the human kingdom to save the day and the game to end. He’s probably expecting the human king to send him on some sort of quest to earn his assistance, or something.

And I'm not "avoiding it", like I said in Zero, I'd love to do a MONTHS long game where the player had to 'PLAY' HARD

I suspect there’s a disconnect here where you and he have different ideas of what a months long game where the player has to “play hard” looks like.

This is after him just doing the whine of "My character does noting, just want to see the king".

That’s a whine now? Sounds to me like playing his character to achieve her goals. It’s typically the DM’s job to place obstacles in the way of the PCs achieving their goals.

Now this sounds likely. Though Adam is one of the players that can "only" play D&D 5E. He did make the 5E elven princess character....


Guess it all makes sense if Adam is clueless about everything.

The hostility you’re showing towards Adam here makes me very skeptical of the one side of the story we’re seeing here. I’d be very curious to see Adam’s perspective on all this.

 

[Charlaquin]

This is why I'm asking the question. It's not just specific to Adam, I have had players do this before. I call it the End Game Problem to make it more generic.

A classic one is with the character backstory. The player makes a nice story of how their parents were killed by Orc Bob, and "someday they will get revenge". And something like five minutes into the first game session Joe is like "I want to abandon the group and run off and find and kill Orc Bob".

If this is a regular problem for you with many players, I suspect the source of the problem lies with the common element (which is to say, your DMing). I would expect, if a PC has very clear built-in goals like revenge for their dead parents, for the player to play the character trying to achieve those goals as efficiently as possible. That just makes sense from an in character perspective. It’s then up to the DM to place obstacles in the way of those goals, and the struggle to overcome those obstacles is where the dramatic action emerges from. It sounds like you may instead be expecting players to ignore their characters’ goals and… I don’t know, I guess just trust that the railroad will eventually lead them to their goals? Or perhaps try to make their own fun for some arbitrary amount of time before you decide it’s ok for them to start actually acting on their built-in motivations?

I'm pretty clear....in a very hard, harsh, brutally honest type of way...so I don't think he misunderstood me. Unless I missed something?

I suspect your “hard, harsh, brutally honest” way of talking to your player may be poisoning the well here. If you come out the gate seeming confrontational, you should fully expect the player to respond defensively. If he’s anticipating a hostile player vs DM dynamic, it’s only natural he would try to “play to win,” expecting you to throw everything at him to try to keep him from winning. If you want a more collaborative dynamic, perhaps try communicating in a softer, gentler, more empathetic fashion.

I would like to figure out what changed or what went wrong. The first two sessions, escaping from the coup, were great. Adam was having fun, and he did not say anything negative at all. Then we start the third game, and it's like he changed.

My goal is to fix whatever went wrong.....I was hopping someone might have some insight as to what did go wrong.

It’s really impossible for any of us to say, having not been there and only having your account of the story. If you don’t know what went wrong, how are we to figure out what went wrong from your perspective alone? I can only surmise that there’s some miscommunication going on, and given your extremely vocal opposition to the notion of simply talking to Adam and asking what went wrong, my suspicion is that you are likely at fault for this miscommunication.

I'm thinking in session zero I might have been to vague...for him. In the zero I only say vague things "you might meet friends or foes in your travels", without directly saying things like "oh, I will make some exiled elven families so your character can find them and make them allies by offering them a chance to be welcomed back into your new kingdom." I don't like to "tell the player what to do" or really "give ideas as DM" .

That’s certainly possible. You should probably ask Adam if this is the case, since he’ll know better than we will.

 

[bloodtide]

Since we weren't at your gaming table and can't peer inside Adam's head, I'm not sure any of us can provide much insight as to what went "wrong", other than perhaps the fact that you seem to have prejudiced yourself against your own player. All we have to go on is what you've told us in this thread.

I was hoping a player that thought the same way or agreed with whatever Adam was doing might say something.

Did he? In your opening post you said he told you multiple times during session zero that he planned to get the neighboring human kingdom to fix everything for him. Sounds like that’s exactly what he’s trying to do now.

I though he was saying "role play out getting the human kingdom to help over many hours, days or weeks of game play as needed". But Adam seems to be more "it just happens with no game play. The End."

I mean, unless my suspicion that he thought session zero was planning for a short prologue instead of the whole campaign is correct, or he probably doesn’t want the human kingdom to save the day and the game to end. He’s probably expecting the human king to send him on some sort of quest to earn his assistance, or something.

I think the prologue idea might be on to something.

I suspect there’s a disconnect here where you and he have different ideas of what a months long game where the player has to “play hard” looks like.

I agree.



I do think the idea that Adam got locked into the idea that the game was in "prologue mode" for some reason. I guess he thinks that is a thing, as I'm sure I would never use that word talking about an RPG. But like he thinks we are in the "pre game" or "set up game" maybe? I can't imagine why he thinks that, but it does kind of fit.

That’s a whine now? Sounds to me like playing his character to achieve her goals. It’s typically the DM’s job to place obstacles in the way of the PCs achieving their goals.

But the whole game all he wanted to do was "get to the humans and have the human army save the day".

The hostility you’re showing towards Adam here makes me very skeptical of the one side of the story we’re seeing here. I’d be very curious to see Adam’s perspective on all this.

I am what I am. It's not really hostile, it just texts that way.

 

[pukunui]

I was hoping a player that thought the same way or agreed with whatever Adam was doing might say something.

Since Adam isn't contributing to this thread, none of us have any way of knowing how he thinks. We can only go by what you're telling us you think he's thinking.

 

[TheSword]

Like John Lennon sang. Life is what happens to you while you’re making other plans.

Enjoying the journey is more important than the destination when it comes to RPG. You’ve got to give the player reasons to care. What links to the kingdom does he find on the way to the human lands. Pursued by the current elf king, betrayed by humans, getting revenge, raising an army from disaffected elves living as ex pats in the human kingdom then eloping with the arrogant human kings son to found a new dynasty when they take the kingdom back together.

As DMs it’s not enough to have a plan, or for the players to have a plan. We’ve got to fill the gaps with stuff to arrest attention…

… you also need players willing to have their attention arrested. Shame. It sounded cool.

 

[Charlaquin]

I was hoping a player that thought the same way or agreed with whatever Adam was doing might say something.

The thing is, none of us know what Adam was doing to be able to determine if we agree with it or not. We only have your brief account, which is coming from a place of not understanding what he was doing or why.

I thought he was saying "role play out getting the human kingdom to help over many hours, days or weeks of game play as needed". But Adam seems to be more "it just happens with no game play. The End."

But according to your opening post, you asked him if he wanted the game to just end now, and he said no. So, obviously “it just happens with no game play. The End.” must not be what he wants.

I think the prologue idea might be on to something.

I agree.
I do think the idea that Adam got locked into the idea that the game was in "prologue mode" for some reason. I guess he thinks that is a thing, as I'm sure I would never use that word talking about an RPG. But like he thinks we are in the "pre game" or "set up game" maybe? I can't imagine why he thinks that, but it does kind of fit.

So ask him that.

But the whole game all he wanted to do was "get to the humans and have the human army save the day".

Of course he did, that’s his character’s goal. What did you expect him to do other than try to achieve his character’s goals? It’s your job as the DM to put challenges in place that prevent him from achieving his character’s goals right away, and in striving to overcome those challenges, gameplay occurs and story emerges.

Maybe what changed is that Adam felt he got to the human kingdom too quickly. He was hoping for months of having to travel through dangerous wilderness just to reach the human kingdom, only to be turned away at the gate, to have to try to sneak his way in, or don a disguise, to have to do favors and win allies to earn an audience with the king, to have to go on perilous quests to prove worthy of his aid. If the alliance with the human kingdom is meant to be the endgame, it should have come at the end of the game, with the summer’s worth of content being all the stuff that gets in the way of achieving that final goal. But of course that goal would be the primary motivator of the character’s action. Of course she’s going to try to get to the king as quickly as possible. Your job is to make sure “as quickly as possible” takes all summer.

But, that’s just my guess. You should ask Adam if that’s what he was expecting.

I am what I am. It's not really hostile, it just texts that way.

Ok. I can only take your word for that, but from what you’ve said it certainly comes across as if Adam may have been put on the defensive by your approach to communicating.

 

[Irlo]

I would like to figure out what changed or what went wrong. The first two sessions, escaping from the coup, were great. Adam was having fun, and he did not say anything negative at all. Then we start the third game, and it's like he changed.

My goal is to fix whatever went wrong.....I was hopping someone might have some insight as to what did go wrong.

The person most likely to have this insight is Adam.

This is clearest and least judgmental way you have framed your intentions in this thread, so use that to open the conversation.

“Adam, the first two sessions seemed great! I think you were having fun.” Pause. Listen. “But I don’t think you enjoyed the third session. I want to fix whatever went wrong so we can play this campaign thorough the summer.” Pause. Listen.

It’s not magic. But it is magical thinking if you believe you can fix this without talking to your player. Try it without the insults.

 

[Brotton Goodfellow]

So, this is a problem that comes up often enough. And just happened to me last weekend. Why do some players want to just jump to the end of the game, but don't really want to end the game. It makes not sense to me. So the current one:

A couple weeks ago Adam came to me all excited about a game plot. His plot is he wants to do a game where he is an elven princess, the youngest ninth in line for the throne. Then the elf kingdom has a bloody coup and she is the only one left. Fleeing the kingdom, she has to struggle and find a way to defeat the new elf king and re take the throne. I ask him how long he wants the game to be, and he responds with "all summer". So to me that is a couple months, at least until August.

I love this sort of game. Rags to riches is one of my favorite game plots. So we do the Zero. Talking it over with Adam, he likes all my vague ideas: The struggle to survive (hard core survival, normal for my games), struggling to find allies, worrying who is friend or foe, having to make bad deals, how far will she go to get her kingdom back and such. Maybe seek out some lost elven magic? Find elven allies? Have a big fight one on one with the elf king? Adam likes it all. Though his only idea/suggestion is "she will go to the human kingdom next door and they will attack the elf kingdom and fix everything." He says it a couple times, as a bit of a red flag.

The game does have two more players, a married couple that are playing background characters. Ian, whose character is the princess's magic sword and Char, whose character is the princess's flying cat familiar. They both want to stay in the background and let Adam lead.

And so three weeks ago, we start the game. The first two games are the back story :The coup happens and the princess goes on the run. So this last weekend, we start session three. What will the princess, alone except for her sword and cat, do first to get on the path to save her kingdom?

So this is where Adam says she will head to the nearby human kingdom for help. So it's a bit of adventure to get to the human kingdom and a bit more to get to the captail and a bit more to get to the royal palace. So the wrinkles start here. All sorts of things are happening all over the place, but Adam is locked into "getting to the human king". So the game rolls on and the princess gets to the human kings court.

When I say "She must wait until the next day" Adam gets antsy, maybe upset. Anything I try and do or make happen in the game, Adam is just like "the princess sits in her room. Can she see the human king yet?"

So the next day comes and the elf princess gets to meet the human king. Now Adam is all like to the king " I need help, when can we leave to get my kingdom back?" I try and slow it down with some role playing, but Adam just has the princess saying things like "lets go!". So I have the king slow things down saying he has somethings to do and will see the elf princess tomorrow with an answer. Adam is all antsy. It's late, so we end the game session here.

As we clean up I get a chance to ask Adam what is going on, but he just acts....I guess confused. I ask him if he wants to run a war game for the two armies fighting....something he NEVER mentioned (and doubt he ever would have thought of as 5E has no mass combat rules). I suggested we can use the ancient D&D Battlesystem Rules. He flat out says he does not want to do that. I ask him if he just wants the human army to auto win vs the elf army? And he just answers with "that is my plan". So, then I ask him if he just wants to end the game here? He gets confused and says no. He never said a word about how his character would be crowed queen and then.......go on adventures? I thought the whole game would be "elf princess tries to get her kingdom back". At last I ask him again that he does want this game to last all summer. He says "yes", but then has to run home and leaves.

So, I'm confused, as are Ian and Char...who don;t say anything as they are playing "background players" too. Though they think Adam is acting odd.

Now, my normal response to something like this might be, next game:

*Delay things in game, by having the king "suddenly and mysteriously" get sick so he can't give and answer to force Adam to role play anything else happening.

*Take the first ten seconds of the next game to say "the human army looses vs the elf army and the elves take over the human kingdom". Then ask Adam what he wants to do.

*Kill off the elf princess (Adam's character) with an assassin and tell him the game is over.

So.....ok, OR I could talk to Adam. Though if you have read a post or two of mine you know it's not my thing to do. By Adams actions, to me, he is either being Clueless(to put it nicely) or he lied about everything he said. Neither makes me think highly of him. So even if I was to "talk" to him....and lay out everything like I did here.....he either "won't understand" or will just "lie more". So that is just a dead end.

But everyone sure makes "talking" sound like some magic problem solver. If I don't just call him clueless or a lair, how do I "Talk to him?" What could I say to get through to him? Does anyone have any idea what he might be thinking? Char thinks he just wants to "do his plan" encase the game ends before he gets to do it.

So how do I "talk" to him to resolve this?

Tell him to tell you what it is he expects to happen after the Elf kingdom is defeated. Does he want to have her crowned yet still go on adventures? Avenge her family? If he can’t give you those answers then he’s got three options.

1. He plays whatever you come up with next for the character.

2. He plays in a new adventure with a new character.

3. He finds someone else to DM.

 

[Larnievc]

Then we start the third game, and it's like he changed.

In what way did he change beyond wanting to get on with his back story?

 

[Larnievc]

But Adam seems to be more "it just happens with no game play. The End.

What events happened in game to stop the human King from marching off to war? Was the PC just asked to wait?