The Possibility of "Too Fantastic" Fantasy

[Reynard]

I was reading through Worlds and Monsters and one of the things that struck me was the oft repeated design intent of making the game "more fantastic". One section speaks specifically of throwing out historical/mythological earth inspired elements in favor of purely designed ones, suggesting that the "Earth well had run dry". And on the surface, I kind of agree -- or, at least, I tend to think that big cool ideas are often big and cool.

Then I turned around and wrote a couple of very mundane geographic informational paragraphs for my own "point of light".

Now, I wrote professionally for Exalted. I know from big, cool fantasy and how to incorporate it into a setting and gear it for player use. But, somehow, when I set my fingers to keyboard to work on something for my own game, for the game that is going to determine whether 4E is "for me" or not, I talk about trees and rivers and the weather. The Weather!!! Oh sure, I included a lake monster and a couple other fantasy elements, but ti was largely "mundane".

And I think I know why -- I like my fantasy firmly rooted in the mundane because it makes the fantastic that much more so. In addition, the mundane is more familiar and familiar encourages immersion and immersion makes the game more "real" and when the game feels more "real" and you suddenly pull out a big giant walking space-god-robot thing that wants to eat the planet, the implications and consequences wrapped around that fantastic element are more real. And therefore, much "bigger" and much "cooler" than it would have been as just another deimonkibot among many.

If W&M is any way to judge, 4E will be constantly reminding us DM's to remember the fantasy part of the FRPG. And I agree. But we can't forget the mundane, everyday aspects either, lest we lose the "fantasy".

 

[mmadsen]

If W&M is any way to judge, 4E will be constantly reminding us DM's to remember the fantasy part of the FRPG. And I agree. But we can't forget the mundane, everyday aspects either, lest we lose the "fantasy".

Absolutely -- but D&D has neglected the mundane for a long, long time.

 

[Mephistopheles]

A good exercise if you're thinking about this topic is to do some thought experiments involving real world societies and magic. I get side tracked with experiments like that quite often when I sit down to do some world design and a lot of the time it's hard to escape the conclusion that magic would have a huge impact on society and leave it looking vastly different. Look at how technology has changed things in the real world over the last couple of centuries and it becomes even more difficult to just tack magic onto historical societies and hand wave the impact under the rug if you're in this frame of mind.

 

[Hussar]

I talk about trees and rivers and the weather. The Weather!!! Oh sure, I included a lake monster and a couple other fantasy elements, but ti was largely "mundane"

It think the difference will be when the rules actually come out, you'll have a degree of transparency that will allow you to pick the degree of fantastic you like. For those who want more traditional (I don't mean that in a bad way WHATSOEVER), you'll be able to pick and choose elements that cater to that. For those who want more wahoo in their games, they can go that way.

It's kind of like Bo9S. If you don't want pyrotechnic effects from your PC's, go with White Raven. If you want more wushu styles, go Desert Wind. I think that the PHB will include enough options that you'll be able to narrow the field to what you want.

Hopefully. I imagine that 4e's success will be predicated on the amount they will allow individual groups to go their own way while not having to rewrite the rules.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I also think that some of the emphasis may come from genre needs as well.

When I write up a culture as GM, for instance, I need to think about what their cities will look like, what tools they might like to trade, who their enemies are, or, heck, even what sort of mighty victory feast they might prepare when the PCs defeat the slavers who have been oppressing them.

When I write up a culture for the PCs, on the other hand, it's pretty much stupid racial tricks, sense of honor/style, and common predjuidices. Not just simple, but a very different brush technique altogether.

Similarly, I think when you're writing a Monster Manual you probably have to ratchet up the fantasy cause even if in-game there's only one terrible monster on the whole island there are well over a hundred more in that book alone. It's going to be natural, nay inevitable, to view them in context with each other and that context is probably going to be pretty wild.

So I agree completley that we shouldn't loose sight of the mundane, but I also respect that the writers of the books probably have their own needs.

 

[rounser]

One section speaks specifically of throwing out historical/mythological earth inspired elements in favor of purely designed ones, suggesting that the "Earth well had run dry".

What I think WOTC doesn't understand in taking this approach is that we're not playing in their world. We're not necessarily interested in their world. Provide us with the basic components from mythology as a baseline, and we can make our worlds. Then, pile on the supplements so that those who want to play in WOTC's idea of a cool world can...but they're not going to trump mythology as a baseline.

Even those new to the game want something they're familiar with so they can tell their stories. That's what the baseline, or core, is for. This is where D&D differs fundamentally from stuff like WoW. WoW isn't a platform for that, and is playing in one, very specific world...so it can go more "off-planet" in it's tropes without a problem.

Oh well, too late now.

Paradigm shift for 5E, maybe?

 

[S'mon]

IMO you need the mundane as counterpoint to the fantastic, to create the 'threshold' effect - the gateway to adventure, such as the dungeon entrance. Previous versions of D&D mostly did this very well, 3e lost sight of this from a misguided sense of simulationism - Monte Cook's claim in 3e DMG that it was 'a mistake' to have mundane cities in a D&D world.

I think all-fantastic worlds only work when the PCs come from elsewhere, eg the Earth folk on alien planet paradigm. OTOH the 'mundane' may be something unfamiliar to us - in Star Wars Luke Skywalker's moisture farm was the mundane world, Mos Eisley cantina the Threshold.

 

[rounser]

And another thing: If this "move away from Earth mythology" stuff actually worked, then Planescape and Dark Sun would still be in print.

I love them both, but there must be a reason why they haven't survived and, say, FR (heavily based on stereotypical D&D fantasy, the type which the core D&D game used to specialise in) has.

Is WOTC's new survey telling them that homebrew has become not the most common setting?

Absolutely -- but D&D has neglected the mundane for a long, long time.

Correct. It looks like they're "doing a TSR". It really is looking like 2E all over again in this respect.

But 2E wasn't so shortsighted as to infest the core with it.

Sheesh...

 

[The Little Raven]

And another thing: If this "move away from Earth mythology" stuff actually worked, then Planescape and Dark Sun would still be in print.

Warcraft is a big move from Earth mythology, but it's full of familiar and iconic imagery (knights in shining armor, barbaric orcs, sorcerous elves, stalwart dwarves, etc.) with some of it's own stuff (voodoo trolls, naturalist minotaurs, trader goblins, draenei) which appeals to so many people. DS and PS were pretty much all different all the time, and that didn't grab as many people.

 

[rounser]

Warcraft is a big move from Earth mythology, but it's full of familiar and iconic imagery (knights in shining armor, barbaric orcs, sorcerous elves, stalwart dwarves, etc.) with some of it's own stuff (voodoo trolls, naturalist minotaurs, trader goblins, draenei) which appeals to so many people. DS and PS were pretty much all different all the time, and that didn't grab as many people.

People don't "run" or 'worldbuild" WoW, though. They just play it. That's why the comparison doesn't apply, and what's acceptable for WoW may be folly for core D&D.