The Possibility of "Too Fantastic" Fantasy

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

And ya know, I actually thought this thread might be an interesting conversation.

I find this particular weird because Mourn's original point seemed to be agreeing with Rounser.

 

[rounser]

but if you're saying that people don't run or worldbuild off of WoW's fiction, and we are talking about fiction here, then it seems like a pretty convincing piece of evidence for Mourn's counter-point.

I never claimed that they didn't, people worldbuild off of many published settings. All of which are irrelevant to what I've said. I'd complain just as much if Dark Sun were made into the core, and I really like Dark Sun. WoW made the core would be bad, too.

It's a cheap trick because you're incapable of reading, much less following a link which quite obviously says WHITE WOLF, a well-known pen and paper RPG company? WoW.

No. But it does show the lengths you'll go to in order to wave that pro-4E flag of yours. You knew what I meant, and deliberately resorted to facetiousness and mock outrage. I think that's a bit intellectually dishonest, and it's all for nought because it's not even relevant to the argument.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I never claimed that they didn't, people worldbuild off of many published settings. All of which are irrelevant to what I've said. I'd complain just as much if Dark Sun were made into the core, and I really like Dark Sun. WoW made the core would be bad, too.

As far as I can read you did indeed claim that they didn't.

The post doesn't mention the core at all. I hadn't realized it was the central thesis of your complaint. I had thought you were talking about the risk of becoming too fantastic generally.

And then Mourn agreed with you by pointing out a fantastic setting that used a lot of familiar icons in order to be a succesful fantastic setting, in contrast to PS or DS.

And perhaps in line with the success of Exalted, which you have written for.

And then you seemed to attack Mourn.

Which seems to undermine your statement about the lengths Mourn is willing to go to fly his 'flag.' From my perspective he just wanted to participate in the conversation.

 

[Reynard]

And ya know, I actually thought this thread might be an interesting conversation.

I think it's still salvageable, if we get back on topic. Obviously, it is a conversation I'd like to see.

 

[rounser]

As far as I can read you did indeed claim that they didn't.

Your first post doesn't mention the core at all.

Alright, to end all speculation and hairsplitting, here's my point:

Players don't "run" the game in the MMORPG, nor do they worldbuild with it. They just play, correct?

WoW can therefore get away with things in it's "core" that would not be appropriate for the D&D core, because D&D is used for making custom adventures and worldbuilding custom worlds. People don't just play D&D.

The existence of a WoW PnP setting is just as relevant to this as the existence of a Lankhmar PnP setting i.e. not relevant at all.

Which seems to undermine your statement about the lengths Mourn is willing to go to fly his 'flag.' From my perspective he just wanted to participate in the conversation.

Yes, he definitely does that.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Well, I'd still argue that Mourn's point is relevant.

It is true that WoW itself is played without being 'run' or 'built' but its also true that its fantastic core setting seems to work very well for the people running it as a PnP. Certainly, at the least, it is less exotic than PS or DS and seems to be really attractive to people.

How about Exalted then?

It's got a fantastic core setting, and it seems to do really well.

 

[The Little Raven]

I find this particular weird because Mourn's original point seemed to be agreeing with Rounser.

Yeah, I was, which was the strangest part of it. I basically pointed out that familiar and iconic imagery draws people in (which Warcraft has in spades) and a certain amount of unfamiliar and new is acceptable (which Warcraft has in smaller amounts than the familiar, honestly), and that "all different, all the time" (like PS and DS) don't really attract people in the same way. Being influenced by other properties in the genre (but different industries) is something that will help D&D. The LotR movies taught them that using the visual design to tell a part of the story frees up more word space for other things. WoW taught them that having characters with powers they can use a lot are fun (as did their own design experiments, like Bo9S), and that the proper balance of "simple to learn, hard to master," paired with a solid style will attract more people.

 

[The Little Raven]

The existence of a WoW PnP setting is just as relevant to this as the existence of a Lankhmar PnP setting i.e. not relevant at all.

Just want to point out that the existence of a Warcraft d20 RPG predates the release of WoW by a year.

 

[rounser]

It is true that WoW itself is played without being 'run' or 'built' but its also true that its fantastic core setting seems to work very well for the people running it as a PnP. Certainly, at the least, it is less exotic than PS or DS and seems to be really attractive to people.

Yes, we're getting something like that with 4E. I've listed some reasons why this is IMO a bad thing to do, upthread.

How about Exalted then?

It's got a fantastic core setting, and it seems to do really well.

As well as D&D?

Has it occurred to you that D&D does well precisely because it's not as specific as Exalted, and that the core let people worldbuild with ease because it didn't need untangling from so much specific setting stuff? The surveys suggesting homebrewing being the most popular setting seem to suggest this.

Shucks, TSR, WOTC and myriad 3rd party companies have had many bites at the cherry at making a setting for D&D, and none seem to beat homebrew for popularity as of 2000. Not even close. If you're suggesting that that's changed with the advent of Eberron and the d20 company settings, colour me skeptical.

 

[rounser]

I basically pointed out that familiar and iconic imagery draws people in (which Warcraft has in spades) and a certain amount of unfamiliar and new is acceptable (which Warcraft has in smaller amounts than the familiar, honestly), and that "all different, all the time" (like PS and DS) don't really attract people in the same way.

But people don't run or worldbuild with the WoW MMORPG, Mourn. That's the point! They're not the same thing! The "certain amount of unfamiliar" ends up in most D&D worlds, which puts a real strain on D&D's relevancy to homebrew fantasy worldbuilding. Unless you specifically ban them, eladrin and dragonborn are now EVERYWHERE in the D&D multiverse same way as mythologically resonant stuff like elves and dwarves. And that's a pity, because custom worldbuilding pretty much was D&D's trump card.