The problem of sundering

[hong]

I had a gish in my party once. Someone stepped on a hot dog and it made this squishy gish sound. That party was RUINED!

 

[Tetsubo]

I've never seen any player EVER sunder anything in 3.x. Nor have I as a GM or player done so... I've never seen the attraction to sunder. Why destroy something that you can use or sell?

 

[Razz]

So the party fighter's magic sword, that he's spent about half his gold on, gets destroyed. Maybe by a blackguard, or a rust monster or a nightwalker or some such.

What happens after that? The PC's effectiveness has been greatly diminished. Does he get a new sword out of party funds? Do the other PCs give him a bigger share of loot until they all have similar magic item values again? Does the GM give him a shiny new sword? Or should he have relied on Greater Magic Weapon like the gish and the cleric?

This is the reason why I hate what I call the "metagaming rules". This is a pure case of metagaming.

"Oh, I'm not worried about my items. By the rules, I should have equipment suitable for my level so I'll get some back if something happens."

There's nothing wrong with sundering. It's realistic. If I aim for a particular item an enemy is carrying and I hit it, it should break or eventually break. What's not realistic is someone, through a twist of fate every single time, gets back something equivalent to what they lost within the same or next adventure. Unless they actively seek it, of course.

I do agree that magic items need a clear ruling on how many hit points they have. Currently, only shields, armor, and weapons have hit points and the rest you'd have to make a judgement call on. Materials have hit points, but why is it a magic sword can have 50+ hit points and hardness 10+ yet a magic ring has hardness 10 and, obviously, 1 or 2 hit points? That ring of shooting stars? Gone in one solid hit. Yet it takes several to take down your Medium +5 dagger.

You could always cast a permanent Hardening spell, but I think magic items should definitely have more hardness and hit points than their unmagical counterparts.

 

[Razz]

I've never seen any player EVER sunder anything in 3.x. Nor have I as a GM or player done so... I've never seen the attraction to sunder. Why destroy something that you can use or sell?

My players tend to sunder at times. In fact, it HAD to be done to destroy one particular enemy. They were 4th-level and one of the enemies was a high AC flind gnoll. They were having problems hitting it and two of the warriors in the group came to the conclusion that they should bash apart its armor. So they sundered a couple of rounds, destroyed the armor and were able to hit the flind with ease.

Challenge overcame.

 

[Alzrius]

My players tend to sunder at times. In fact, it HAD to be done to destroy one particular enemy. They were 4th-level and one of the enemies was a high AC flind gnoll. They were having problems hitting it and two of the warriors in the group came to the conclusion that they should bash apart its armor. So they sundered a couple of rounds, destroyed the armor and were able to hit the flind with ease.

Challenge overcame.

You do realize that the rules on sundering say it can be done to weapons, shields, and items, but not armor, right? In fact, this is probably the main reason why you can't sunder armor.

 

[James McMurray]

We allow for reforging at a reduced cost.

In fact, this is probably the main reason why you can't sunder armor.

It might also be the "how do you destroy his armor with a greatsword but never scratch him?" factor.

 

[Umbran]

This is the reason why I hate what I call the "metagaming rules". This is a pure case of metagaming.

"Oh, I'm not worried about my items. By the rules, I should have equipment suitable for my level so I'll get some back if something happens."

That's not necessarily metagaming, or unrealistic (for fiction) - because it's also Conan, and Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser. There's some heroic genres where money comes and goes like the tides, and the heroes are not terribly worried about it in the long run. They may be short now, but they'll find some huge ruby in a few days and be flush for ale, whores, and new equipment then.

 

[Jer]

We allow for reforging at a reduced cost.

This is exactly what I do when magic weapon breakage comes up. In fact, its a great time to have the PCs go off and get some necessary component for reforging that gives the weapon a bit more of an enchantment than it used to have. Turning unplanned random moments into major story elements is part of what I've always found fun about D&D.

 

[James McMurray]

MIC also has gems that attach to your weapons and boost them. These can somewhat help to mitigate the problem, as part of your weapon's power wasn't destroyed. If you've got another weapon handy with the appropriate enhancement bonus you can take a move to get the old one off, another to attach it to the new one, and be at least partially "repaired" in one round.

 

[Jack of Shadows]

Yes,

Sunder is a problem due to the nature of D&D. No matter which side sunders the players loose. I'm currently playing a Paladin who is sunder focused. I liked the idea of the big armored knight smashing his opponents' weapons and demanding their surrender. But, while I'm really good at doing it I'm generally destroying treasure that then reduces the parties abilities as expected by the system. If the enemy sunders a PC's weapon, again, they loose out on a considerable amount of their character's wealth. Magic weapons are expensive, if the recent design diaries for the MIC are to be given weight they're probably too expensive.

Currently the ONLY way to compensate for this is for the GM to increase the treasure allotment so that the PC can recoup from the loss. This tends to feel clunky because the player feels like a chunk of their character has been torn away, especially if they had really invested in this item. I mean how would King Arthur feel if Excaliber got smashed?

One of the "house rules" I've made is to allow the spell Make Whole to fix magic items. This means that things can still be broken but the "wealth" penalty can be considerably negated. Even if the party mage doesn't know the spell thay can go back to town and pay a local wizard to have the item fixed.

Jack