The problem of sundering

[2WS-Steve]

I'm not talking about from an NPC on the battlefield perspective, I'm talking about from a GM perspective. There are many times when destroying a spellbook, holy symbol, etc. is a great idea. Yes, it might not be the best option when you're waving a sword in your face, but unless the game is very one dimensional, things happen outside of sword waving situations.

If you're destroying the fighter's gear but leaving the wizard and cleric alone, there may be something imbalanced in your setup.

Moreover, replacing a holy symbol or spell book is relatively cheap compared to replacing a magic weapon, putting the already beleaguered fighter who's up front soaking the attacks at even more of a disadvantage compared to the other classes.

 

[James McMurray]

Replacing a spellbook is cheap? Not only do you have to repurchase and rescribe all of your found and bought spells, you also have to repurchase and rescribe all of the spells you get for free by levelling because you only get those free when you level. A destroyed spellbook, especially at higher levels, is often cause for instant retirement.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Replacing a spellbook is cheap? Not only do you have to repurchase and rescribe all of your found and bought spells, you also have to repurchase and rescribe all of the spells you get for free by levelling because you only get those free when you level. A destroyed spellbook, especially at higher levels, is often cause for instant retirement.

I think there is a differnt feel around the weapon vs the spell book or such. It can happen any time there is some item or concept that the PC is centered around. In Shadowrun3 I had a rigger with a tricked out drone. If that drone had been destroyed in combat, I'd never have been able to replace it, and keeping the character involved in the game would have been impossible.

It all depends on how central the sword is to the PC in question of course. If the fighter has a longsword +1 ghost touch, an adamantine longsword +2 flaming, and a silver +1 holy sword, it won't matter as much.

 

[2WS-Steve]

Replacing a spellbook is cheap? Not only do you have to repurchase and rescribe all of your found and bought spells, you also have to repurchase and rescribe all of the spells you get for free by levelling because you only get those free when you level. A destroyed spellbook, especially at higher levels, is often cause for instant retirement.

That's true.

I had always rule-zeroed that weird game choice away so fast that it didn't occur to me.

My house rule goes along the lines of the preparing from someone else's spellbook, but making the Spellcraft check once is all you need to do. I treat it as if that first inscribing of the spell is also the process of learning the spell, and thus costs more, but afterwords it primarily a matter of having some time to replace the loss.

The spellbook rule is bizarrely broken -- even worse than hordes of rust monsters and adamantine wielding giants with improved sunder.

 

[James McMurray]

Do wizards in your world take advantage of the free copies to trade copiously amongst themselves?

 

[Nathan P. Mahney]

I think if you are going to tell the fighter to suck it up, you better share the hate around to the wizards, clerics, and druids -- perhaps create some monsters that permanently destroy rings, wands, and wondrous items, or maybe just permanently destroy spell slots...

Otherwise, next week you might discover that there aren't any fighters left in your party.

Well, when I said that I had my 'mock Rat-Bastard-DM' hat on - but hell, it got me QFTed, so who am I to argue?

Either way, I allow magic weapons to be reforged, so it's no big deal. Said fighter is at a disadvantage for one session, or maybe just one fight. No major problems there.

As for the other classes, they get theirs as well. Remember those worms that ate spellbooks? If that happens to a wizard, he's in a much worse position than our theoretically-sundered fighter. I've also DMed a game where a kamikaze orc sundered a staff of power, resulting in a TPK, and I've had vampires sunder cleric holy symbols. About the only class that doesn't get disadvantaged by sunder is the monk, but they have their own batch of deficiencies.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I wouldn't permanently break a fighter's sword any more than I would permanently deafen the party wizard or permanently blind the party's archer.

Of course, it might be rendered "nonfunctional barring a good solid day's tinkering and a nice Craft check."

 

[WizarDru]

I'm not talking about from an NPC on the battlefield perspective, I'm talking about from a GM perspective. There are many times when destroying a spellbook, holy symbol, etc. is a great idea. Yes, it might not be the best option when you're waving a sword in your face, but unless the game is very one dimensional, things happen outside of sword waving situations.

If you're destroying the fighter's gear but leaving the wizard and cleric alone, there may be something imbalanced in your setup.

I agree there are times when these are valid options...but IME its fairly rare when it's actually actionable or valid except in some broader metagaming sense and does nothing to enhance the game, IMHO. With the exception of the wizard's greater vulnerability, spellcasters are far less exposed to loosing their abilities and the fighter's loss of efficacy is relatively minor.

Destroying a Wizard's spellbook is a possibility, but rarely within the confines of combat. For one thing, it's usually valuable loot...and unlike a magic sword, it isn't actively hurting you. Destroying a spellbook isn't going to stop the wizard from casting Finger of Death...but getting up in his face WILL. All of that's assuming he's even carrying it on him, which he may not be. And if you're close enough to inconvenience him, you're better served hitting him than killing his equipment. The holy symbol is a better example (as is the component pouch), but again, these are not universally required for every spell. And at the cost of 1 gp* or 5 gp respectively, it's safe to assume most spell-casters would carry spares...or would start doing so after the first sundering. Just like the fighter carries a secondary weapon or scavenges one in a pinch.

Outside the battlefield situation, it's very much a non-issue. Unless the cleric is practicing a very unpopular or non-standard religion, acquiring a holy symbol or fashioning one is a fairly trivial task. Likewise, for a spellcaster, the rules are specific in that anything but g.p. valued components are to be considered too trivial to track (and likewise trivial enough to replace). So even if you destroyed them in every session, it wouldn't be the same as destroying the fighter's primary weapon.

Destroying the spellbook is expensive and penalizes the player in a way destroying the fighter's weapon does not. Destroying a +3 Hammer of Fiery Burst means the fighter looses some nice bonuses. Destroying a spellbook if the wizard has no additional copies reduces him to either creating a new one (which results in downtime for the character), memorizing from another spellbook (if one is available, and rolls are successful) or doing nothing with the character for a while. Sorcerors and bards, of course, have no such issues. In general, destroying the spellcasters spellbook is a trick you pull ONCE. Because it has a chilling effect on a game or simply pushes the spellcaster to spend more money on protecting that investment, and thus returns to the non-issue status.

Either way, we return to the 'rub some dirt in it and get back in there' idea, IMHO.

* - (unless you're one of those RICH clerics, who opts for the fancy-schmancy 25 gp Silver one, of course)

 

[WizarDru]

Replacing a spellbook is cheap? Not only do you have to repurchase and rescribe all of your found and bought spells, you also have to repurchase and rescribe all of the spells you get for free by levelling because you only get those free when you level. A destroyed spellbook, especially at higher levels, is often cause for instant retirement.

Replacing a spellbook is ridiculously expensive. Which is why, after a certain point, the wizard usually drops 12,500 on a Blessed Book or takes the feats and crafts his own for significantly less, either as insurance or just as a cost cutter and for it's convenience. Generally, it's in the wizard's best interest to purchase/craft one as soon as he can.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Most weapons aren't going to be a 'trump' unless they're something like good, lawful, cold steel, silver or adamantine when that's all that will hurt the monster or bbeg. Otherwise, it's mostly the difference between a few points to your attack, damage or both. This is mostly felt at low levels, where those bonuses will make the most difference, but since there are fewer magic weapons then, it's not as noticable to most games.

Well, sure, if you want to explain it in easy terms.

Well said.