The problem with elves (question posed)

[Edena_of_Neith]

Hey, ask Mandos why he threw his Curse on the Noldor.
I don't see how they could win with that curse on their shoulders. Do you?

How then, *would* the Flanaess react if the Noldor went spilling into Celene? You brought up the possibility, and we know the setting (Greyhawk.) What happens next, after Feanor and Fingolfin set up shop in Celene?

I remember Hyboria as being a very rough place. Even Aquilonia had it's share of uproar. The world was definitely the kind of place where you kept your sword handy.
I cannot see pacifist elves making it anywhere in Hyboria without aid. Someone avidly discussing the 'value of life' would have been laughed out of most Hyborian establishments as a deluded philosopher.
Elves espousing a peaceful coexistence would be looked upon with suspicion, paranoia, and conniving by the rulers, and prejudice and superstition by the peasantry, in the nicer places. In many parts of Hyboria, they (along with any trespassing humans) would simply be attacked on sight.
Yes, careful, cautious elves could make it, in places like Zingara, Aquilonia, Nemedia, Zingara (sp?), and Koth. Can't speak of anywhere else, though.

 

[gizmo33]

I remember Hyboria as being a very rough place. Even Aquilonia had it's share of uproar. The world was definitely the kind of place where you kept your sword handy.
I cannot see pacifist elves making it anywhere in Hyboria without aid. Someone avidly discussing the 'value of life' would have been laughed out of most Hyborian establishments as a deluded philosopher.

Violence in stories about Conan's life is not the same thing as assuming violence in the world. Conan sought out violence and found it, much like would happen in the real historical past (when pacifists existed as well). Conan stories are violent because Conan is - so I don't think there's much of a case there.

And comparisons to the real historical past are relevant because it was the basis for Howard's Hyboria. I don't think he ever intended to create a world that was fundementally philosophically different from Earth. Especially since some Conan stories are just reworking of Wild West or Colonial era stories set in more modern periods.

Mitra is a god in Hyboria, for example, who may have many traits similar to historical pacifist religions.

As someone else pointed out, there's also plenty of room in Hyboria for groups of people. Of course they would have to be involved in politics to some degree as any other group would - which would mean fighting battles and such on occasion. I don't understand the basic logic that says that a group of creatures that's exceptionally intelligent and long-lived is somehow at a disadvantage in scheme of survival. I'm not even sure really that elves' appearance is particularly more strikingly different from an Aesir than someone from Stygia.

Much like in the real world, it would probably be the case that regions near the elfin homeland would be peopled with half-elven types, and various ethnic groups in the area would show elven traits. I think the imagined reaction of humans to elves is largely based on the fact that they never existed in the real world - whereas in fantasy they do.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

(Now, only elves can be the dreaded Faerunian Bladesingers, but most DMs disallow that option.)

Huh? It's not like they were that powerful.

Philosophy was no match for the Roman Legion.

Their philosophy was intangible. You can't think someone to death in our world. But if you're a spellcaster....

I do not think elves are superior to all the other races.
I think they are *inferior* to the other races.

Wouldn't say so. -2 con isn't that much of an issue, and +2 dex helps setting it off a bit (they will act sooner, will be better at dodging swords and fireballs, and be better archers)

But the elves *could* stand their own. I'm saying they cannot do it, using human methods of savagery, ruthlessness, warlike tendencies, and so on. They cannot 'out human' humans. It just doesn't work.

I still don't get why elves are supposed to be bad at war? Their main deity is a deity of war. All elves (except those of some subraces from some books) can use sword and bow. That's not what I call a pacifist.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Of course, elves are often racist, bigoted, or even extremists. They think themselves better than all the other races.

Same goes for humans and dwarves, the other two major races in D&D. The other main races consist of half-breeds and races that don't have their own big nations.

This attitude has not worked for the illithid, who are much more powerful than the elves and free of any moral restraints, not to mention the illithid work as a tightly knit team. So obviously it doesn't work for the elves.

How can elves have moral restraints while still being racist, bigoted, or even extremists? That doesn't seem to fit.

Elves are humanoids. That means all they can get is a "usual CG" alignment option. They're no outsiders with "always CG". They're elves, not eladrin.

They will done what they think has to be done. If that means killing those who invade their homes, they will do it. If it means slaying lesser races in case of extremists, then they will do it.

It DOES eliminate the possibility of alliances, isolates the elves militarily

Note that not all elves are extremists. Even you seem to agree, saying that they're CG. They're no less likely to enter alliances with those who possess a compatible mindset than others.

In the 3rd IR, the elves actually tried just that. EVERY OTHER RACE on Toril allied against them. End of the elves of Realmspace.

IR? What's that? Doesn't sound canon.

What I'm really trying to say is that, the elven attitude makes a bad situation worse. If it was hard for them to cope with the outside world before, it is much harder yet now.

You mean, the killing everyone else with extreme prejudice while being hopeless pacifists? Yeah, that Johnny Elven's a real bastard, savagely attacking you with his longsword while running away cowardly.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

- Of course elves can fight back. But it seems like they don't fight back very well.

I don't know about many other campaign settings, but at least in the Realms and in Midnight, they're very good at fighting.

Consider Toril itself (FR, elves reduced to Evermeet and Evereska.)

And Cormanthor (with Myth Drannor - recently purged from hordes of devils and daemonfey by an elven crusade), and a number of forests with large wild/wood elf populations. And several lands and cities with more than a bit of elven population among other races.

That's a good example, by the way: In that crusade, they managed to make several allies, and hold their own against daemonfey, devils, drow, the Zhentarim, Hillsfar.... did I forget anyone? They also kept Evereska free of the fey'ri threat.

Oh, and they held their own against both the Phaerimm and Shades back when Shade returned, again having some allies on their side (but still doing more then enough of the fighting themselves)

The Question really is: how can we make it so elves can fight back effectively, while still remaining elves?

Forget your pacifist house rules. They're absent in D&D.

There seems to be a cultural defect with elves in that they sit back and do ... nothing.

I wouldn't call it doing nothing. Just because you don't kill an enemy nation every 3 years doesn't mean that you do nothing.

- PC elves are all for change. But the societies they come from are not. I defy any PC to talk the elves of Evermeet into going back to Faerun.

Been there, done that.

Canon's there, too. The FRCS 3e itself states that the Retreat is over. Already, the elves have retaken Myth Drannor with a crusade that led thousands of evermeet elves back to Faerûn.

- It would be a refreshing change, a world dominated by elves, if the elves did not act like humans in order to survive. Their survival mechanism should be uniquely elven. How do we accomplish that? (because this business of 'out-humaning' the humans when it comes to being ruthless and warlike and violent, is old hat. And it doesn't seem logical, considering elven realities.)

I want to point out again that those realities seem to apply mostly to your CS.

Again speaking for the FR, elven history is anything but peaceful. There's some areas that have been rendered inhabitable by the high elven magic version of nuklear fallout (one of those areas -a very big one - has very recently been "cleaned"), cities that have been swallowed by the see because elves had enough of its inhabitants.

There was a 3000 year period where elves covered all of Faerûn with terrible war.

And they managed to wrest dominion of faerûn from the dragons.

The elves of Toril had their First Flowering. What brought them down was a tendency to try to 'out-human the humans' as it were. I'm not referring to the savage Illthyrri (sp?) here, but to the Dark Disaster of Miritar (sp?) caused by the elves of Arvandaar, plus all the other nonsense pulled by the non-Illthyrri elves.
One has to wonder how the First Flowering came to be in the first place, with the elves so warlike and ruthless and downright evil. I guess it was High Magic, a temporary edge on magic the elves had that nobody else did.
- Of course Tolkien is to blame.

Note that most atrocities were commited by two nations, Aryvandaar and Ilythiir. The others just defended themselves (or carried out divine edict). Not even all gold elves were like that (or all dark elves, for that matter).

Yet the Noldor went down, in the end.

They went home.

I've played beautiful elven maids. The problem with doing this is a spell called Fireball and a failed saving throw.

Note that elves are less likely to fail that save than many other races, because their dex bonus gives them +1 on reflex saves. And those who don't get the bonus are usually better at flinging those fireballs around.

 

[The Green Adam]

Originally Posted by Edena_of_Neith
I do not think elves are superior to all the other races.
I think they are *inferior* to the other races.

See, I think this is essentially what I don't get. When you say you think they're inferior do you mean your Elves, Elves in 3.5, Elves in comparission to Humans...

My Elves are far from inferior to the other races. Magical affinity, long history and a good memory means extensive knowledge (knowledge is power), resistance to Sleep and Charm magic, bonuses with the two most common weapons in a fantasy setting and extremely long life. Doesn't sound so wussy to me.

So why don't they rule? Checks and balances. There are far more Humans and Dwarves then Elves (although we see fewer Dwarves interacting with the rest of the world IMC). It took Elves a really long time to innovate and advance. There are a vast number of powerful enemies threatening them, as well as the Humans, Dwarves , etc. It made more sense to join forces and fight together.

I just done understand where the basis of your statement originates.

 

[The_Gneech]

I remember Hyboria as being a very rough place. Even Aquilonia had it's share of uproar. The world was definitely the kind of place where you kept your sword handy.
I cannot see pacifist elves making it anywhere in Hyboria without aid. Someone avidly discussing the 'value of life' would have been laughed out of most Hyborian establishments as a deluded philosopher.
Elves espousing a peaceful coexistence would be looked upon with suspicion, paranoia, and conniving by the rulers, and prejudice and superstition by the peasantry, in the nicer places. In many parts of Hyboria, they (along with any trespassing humans) would simply be attacked on sight.

The entire population of Xuthal sits around sleeping all day and was not seen by outsiders for millennia -- and was never conquered. The cult of Mitra values life and espouses peaceful coexistence. Your memory of Hyboria is skewed.

Anyway, all this going around and around is little more than "yes it is, no it isn't". Once you define elves in your game to be doomed, they're doomed. But don't think it's some kind of inevitable logic of pseudo-history -- it's just that you've chosen to make them doomed.

-The Gneech

 

[Shadeydm]

Once you define elves in your game to be doomed, they're doomed. But don't think it's some kind of inevitable logic of pseudo-history -- it's just that you've chosen to make them doomed.

-The Gneech

Here we get to the very heart of the matter.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Right now I play a dwarf priest that has the power to heal even the most grievous wounds, protect himself and others from all kinds of harm, and turn himself into a 70-foot juggernaut of destruction that can pound balors into the dust within one round. The others don't envy or resent me.

You'll need to explain this one to me, mainly so I can do it.

 

[Drkfathr1]

F-A-N-T-A-S-Y

It's all make-believe folks, you can make Elves whatever you want them to be.

What Tolkien did, what D&D does, what FR, or Dragonlance, or Greyhawk, or Ebberon, etc., it's all about what "YOU" make them.