The problem with elves (question posed)

[Choranzanus]

It just seems to be the doom of elves, an unavoidable fate. Even as humans are doomed to quickly grow old and die, elves as a race are doomed to perish.
Perhaps they were created, to show the other races something important, something vital, while they remained in existence?

Yeah, they are supposed to leave behind lots of ruins with powerful magical artifacts... :\

 

[Roger]

- Alignment: Chaotic Good. Now, one must describe what Chaotic Good is. Start with a profound love of life, one's own life and the lives of others. The taking of life is an almost unthinkable horror. Injuring another is a horrific act. Actually harming another elf is out of the question, barring the most extraordinary circumstances.
The profound love of life spills into every attitude, every social custom, every institution of elven civilization, into every law, into daily life.
That's a start. What is the rest? Good question ... elves, like humans, vary greatly in behavior and outlook.

Besides the obvious, can you'all see why my player will be in for a lot of grief, playing this character? Can you see why the character will be difficult to play?

Sure. There's all sorts of problems here, and, surprising no one, they all stem from alignment, or something alignment-like..

First, it appears (although it isn't entirely clear) that elves... heck, these are strange enough that I think calling them "elves" isn't helping anyone, so I'm just going to call them "Edenas", after their creator -- Edenas seem to always have the same alignment. This would make them unique among humanoids and monstrous humanoids (well, excepting lycanthropes, which implies that Edenaism is a disease, which is sort of interesting, but neither here nor there.)

Secondly, as far as the alignment itself goes... it seems that there is either a gross misunderstanding of what Chaotic Good actually is, or that there is a code of conduct far beyond mere alignment.

To suggest that it's inherent in the nature of Chaotic Goodness is to make pacifists out of brass dragons, copper dragons, storm giants, unicorns, and others. This seems a bit more implausible than the rest.

If it's some code of conduct that all Edenas everywhere are, for some reason, beholden to, well, that can result in one of the worst possible situations:

Player: I shoot the monster, hoping to kill it!
DM: No you don't. You don't want to do that. You want to do something else.

Now, if that's not the situation at all -- if the DM will let the Edena characters attack and kill monsters -- then the race becomes much less problematic and more playable.

But if that is the case -- if the DM is set on telling a player what his character may or may not even attempt -- then, yes, that's a recipe for grief.

On the other hand, there's a chance it might be fun to play a pacifist character. If I knew that's what I was going into, I might be inclined to create a pure support character, helping the other PCs. Sanctuary would help here, as would Invisibility a bit later on.


Cheers,
Roger

 

[BlackMoria]

Edena:

Your suppositions have alot of non sequitur logic in it and you have arrived at a conclusion that is incorrect.

Pacifism - One can be a pacifist and a skilled warrior at the same time. They are not mutually exclusive concepts. Pacifism is not echewing violence at any cost, pacifism is echewing violence as a means to settle disputes. Self defence is very much allowed under the pacifism philosphy, as is the defence of family and community.

I submit to you that elves as you portrayed them are an impossibility in a fantasy setting. In a world filled with dangerous creatures likes orc and goblin hordes, dragons, beholders, etc - any race that takes such a extreme pacifist stance would have been extinct long ago.

Kick the Puppy Syndrome - this is the suppostion you make that the reasons the elves invite aggression to themselves is because of racial predjuice and jealousy.

Nations go to war over resources, either temporal or political. Even the genocides of the 20th century are more to do with political and temporal power than simply killing people because they are 'different'. Ethnic cleansing is about redrawing political and physical boundaries, acquiring territory, and removing competition for resources. Attacking those who are 'different' is a convenient way to justify it.

Therefore, the notion that just being 'elves' is grounds for aggression to elves is a poor premise to justify why elves got the short end of the stick.

Adaptive Society - you discounted completely the concept of adaptive societies. Societies adapt to the current reality and can do so without sacrificing 'who they are' in the process.

Look at any large ethnic group that is displaced (by choice or otherwise) and they hang onto the values of what they are while adapting to the reality of the new culture settings they find themselves in. Proof of that is ethnic quarters in cities, like Chinatowns, Italian quarters, etc. which maintain a cultural connection to the old country yet make allowances for the country in which that ethnic group currently resides.

Elves can go from pacifist to militarism without sacrificing their core being because war is not a constant, even in our real world. Wars start and wars always end at some point and then life goes back to normal, until the next war comes along. Elves going from pacifist to determined warriors doesn't in any way mean that elves are 'going human' - it means that elves now have to take settle issues by warlike means as a final option. A elven artisan or poet that takes up the sword is still a artisan or a poet - just one with a sword now who has to learn and use a new skill set - that of a warrior.


Settings - ok, lets say that most settings show elves are declining. Are there reasons within the setting that support that supposition and do they make sense? The elf as victim is too overused and in most case, not well supported in the setting except for the authors proclaiming that 'elves are declining or are not a dominate player on the world stage'

Here are some alternate explainations to non-dominate elves in a setting.

Elves are isolationist. This doesn't necessarily mean that elves feel superior or are arrogant racists to have this viewpoint. I can make a case for elves being tied to the natural world more closely than other races and preferring to eschew the 'civilizing' (natural to an artifical or non-natural world) trends of humans. Elves don't like the 'feel' of towns and cities or dwarven mines and underground cities and therefore, limit contact with the rest of the world and contact is on their terms. However, the elves are powerful mililtarily and magically and therefore enforce the limitation of social interaction.

Elves are mysterious. Something about elves make other humanoids uneasy around elves. In this situation, the other races are the others limiting contact with elves because of the natural mistrust when dealing with something one can't understand. Elves feel this tension and reciprocate by limiting contact with other races.

I can go on but I hit the salient points of why I think your premises are unsupportable.

I can have pacifist elves still be elves even in the face of aggression because wars are 'temporary interludes' in the life of a elf and just like in the real world, the majority of soldiers in wartime are not bloody thirsty killers, they are normal, peaceful people who are required to take up arms and kill the enemy and once the war is over, they go back to their normal lives, with the guilt of the necessary deaths of others on their hands.

And while you might have ultra pacifist elves in your setting, the very notion doesn't work for a dangerous world full of dangerous creatures. IMC, elves are peaceful but very competent warriors and terrible to behold when stirred to war.

 

[The Green Adam]

Nice background, Green Adam.
I think the dwarves would begrudge your elves, though, since stones and stonework are supposedly their sphere.

OK fair warning...this will get a bit ranty...

Only if you go with the ideas used in every other boring, copycat, standardized series. I don't do that. I don't mean to be antagonistic or fecisous but try thinking outside the box. Bear in mind that box is very, very old.

Why would Dwarves begrudge the Elven people for being given the gift of magic crystals?? What's it to them? Should the Wood Elves be pissed at the Dwarves and Humans for making things out of wood? How the heck does that make any sense? If anything it gives them common gorund, a mutual respect for the Earth. Besides, the Dwarves still remain the undisputed champions of mining, stonecutting and similar work for their own cultural reasons.

People aren't their jobs or their cliched interests. Why in my opinion, it borders on discrimination and prejudice. Are all of one kind of people good at banking, bad with money, lazy, untrustworthy? So I'm a Dwarf and I gotta love rocks is that it? No Elf could possibly be interested in the workings of mechanical devices? That is as preposterous and it is limiting.

I'm starting to remember why I don't like to run fantasy any longer. Once Tolkien did it, it cannot be undone or changed.

 

[Roger]

People aren't their jobs or their cliched interests. Why in my opinion, it borders on discrimination and prejudice. Are all of one kind of people good at banking, bad with money, lazy, untrustworthy?

Elves and dwarves are not "kinds of people." They are foreign, alien species.

As we've had very little experience with foreign, alien species of the sentient variety, it's very difficult to say what is unrealistically preposterous.


Cheers,
Roger

 

[The Green Adam]

Elves and dwarves are not "kinds of people." They are foreign, alien species.

As we've had very little experience with foreign, alien species of the sentient variety, it's very difficult to say what is unrealistically preposterous.


Cheers,
Roger

Not my point. Your mentioning my line without understanding it. I am advicating diversity. Are you saying that a complete lack of diversity in living, intelligent beings is realistic? And I disagree, while they may be different species, they are still people with individual minds and seperate motivation from individual to individual.

What your saying is that when we meet an alien species someday and there are 10 billion of them let's say, each and every single one is going to be an exact and identical copy of each other one. I would go further to ask, would you want to play that species in a game? And in my game, played years after yours, every member of that speices should also be an exact replica. Huh?

 

[Roger]

Are you saying that a complete lack of diversity in living, intelligent beings is realistic?

I'm saying we don't have enough information to know if it's realistic or not.

What your saying is that when we meet an alien species someday and there are 10 billion of them let's say, each and every single one is going to be an exact and identical copy of each other one.

I'm saying that might be the case. It might not. We have exactly one data point so far, which makes it hard to extrapolate.

I would go further to ask, would you want to play that species in a game?

Well... that's a more interesting question, and it has nothing to do with realism. I'm not sure. Would I want to play a modron? Yeah, maybe, in the right circumstances. Or a soldier of the Clone Army. It would depend on the game.

It seems like lots and lots of people have absolutely no problem at all with playing elves and dwarves by the RAW.


Cheers,
Roger

 

[Slife]

I can have pacifist elves still be elves even in the face of aggression because wars are 'temporary interludes' in the life of a elf and just like in the real world, the majority of soldiers in wartime are not bloody thirsty killers, they are normal, peaceful people who are required to take up arms and kill the enemy and once the war is over, they go back to their normal lives, with the guilt of the necessary deaths of others on their hands.

And while you might have ultra pacifist elves in your setting, the very notion doesn't work for a dangerous world full of dangerous creatures. IMC, elves are peaceful but very competent warriors and terrible to behold when stirred to war.

So, basically the USA before WWII.

 

[The Green Adam]

It seems like lots and lots of people have absolutely no problem at all with playing elves and dwarves by the RAW.


Cheers,
Roger

Ah! There we go, back on track!

What I was talking about had to do with creating an interest background, culture and personality for your races. My Elves are basically RAW...stat wise at least. They don't differ from the Elves in hundreds, maybe thousands of other campaigns. But the point of the whole thing is they don't have to think like the characters in thousands of other campaign just because their stats are a certain way or becuase they have been depicted one way for over 50 years.

I'm saying we don't have enough information to know if it's realistic or not.

I'm saying that might be the case. It might not. We have exactly one data point so far, which makes it hard to extrapolate.

Umm...yeah. What I meant was we are making it up so it can be however we want. You do know we were taking about creatures in fantasy role playing games here right?

 

[Roger]

What I meant was we are making it up so it can be however we want.

Ah, good -- I can certainly agree with you on that. I was just a bit surprised by your earlier rant asserting that the way some people wanted to play them was discriminatory, prejudiced, preposterous, and limiting.