The problem with elves (question posed)
- Thread starter Edena_of_Neith
- Start date
GreatLemur
Explorer
Perhaps an approach that doesn't presuppose elves to be something so completely and illogically ridiculous they have no place in any sane campaign setting?Edena_of_Neith said:
Better yet, let's just forget them completely.
Kae'Yoss
First Post
GreatLemur said:
Yeah! I mean, living fire, sure! Walking corpses - any night of the week! Guys in pointy hats flinging about death and destruction with their fingers? No problem! Living embodiments of things like law or good? Why not?
But human-like beings with a longer lifespan and some differences from humans (like pointy ears)? Get out of here!
Funny you should mention that, I just watched Men in Black. So you want to wipe my memory and tell me elves are only pointy-eared weather balloons?
Humanophile
First Post
Kae'Yoss said:Yeah! I mean, living fire, sure! Walking corpses - any night of the week! Guys in pointy hats flinging about death and destruction with their fingers? No problem! Living embodiments of things like law or good? Why not?
But human-like beings with a longer lifespan and some differences from humans (like pointy ears)? Get out of here!
Actually, I think he was talking about the Edena strain of elf. Such a breed of idyllic creature is rather at odds with the idea of living in the world. Alternate takes on elves could have a better go at things.
And while I have my own concept of elves to handle both player attitudes and popular conceits, I'm a little surprised that Edena can't see a good way for "elves to remain elves" and not die in droves. As otherworldly, quasi-fae beings, it might be good to remember that fae were most fond of fighting by proxy and misdirection in "real world" tales. A simple confusion spell, illusions to convince your foes to strike each other, diplomatic wrangling, buffing one's allies, and turning your foes' weapons and spells against them are all quite unusual and philosophical ways to handle a conflict. (Even if the last is ill-supported in this game. Spell turning ideas past the Spell Turning spell add a nice spice to any magical duel.) Finding a player who wants to play that way - and rewarding her for nonstandard combat over standard inflicting of damage - would probably give you a good idea how elves could remain other while still remaining effective in this game.
Old Gumphrey
First Post
Kae'Yoss said:You use Miracle, copying the 7th-level wu jen spell "giant size" (Complete Arcane). On level 19 and up, you turn colossal and get, among other things, +32 Str.
I wasn't quite honest, though. There is resentment there - from the DM!
That's busted ass, I friggin love it!
GreatLemur
Explorer
Yep. I figure Kae'Yoss was aware, but thanks.Humanophile said:
William Ronald
Explorer
Hi, Edena:
A slight correction: it was in the 2nd IR (Industirial Revolution, a play by post game here at EN World) where the elves of Realmspace for the most part decided to attack Toril for the defeat and genocide of the elves committed in the 1st IR. The elves returned and chose to live among their former enemies, the humanoids, whom they had fought back-to-back against their foes.
However, in the 3rd IR set on Oerth, which I played in, the Elves formed alliances -- as did the other good and neutral races and nations. (The 3rd IR began with limited contact from Toril seeking to share the secrets of technology.) Turrosh Mak was convinced that the use of technology could not only make his nation powerful but cooperating with his neighbors would be better than fighting them. (Thus, Turrosh Mak can be seen as an example of successful diplomacy: appealing to his sense of self-interest and turning an enemy into an ally.) THe elves of Celene, the Ulek states, the Lendores and elsewhere on Oerth worked and fought next to their neighbors and can be considered to have successfully adapted. Indeed, if outside powers such as Mina (the main villain from the more recent Dragonlance books) had not intervened -- many of the evil powers would have fought among themselves to a greater degree. Indeed, they could have been overwhelmed by an alliance of humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings and more enlightened humanoids. (One could argue that they were as an outside power sought to help the peoples of Oerth and the other worlds survive. Elves cannot be seen as the losers in the 3rd IR at least.)
Each DM has to chose how each world works, and that includes the races. A key thing to remember is that intelligent people will often find ways to adapt to new situations. Rome overcame Ancient Greece, not because of Greek philosophy creating weakness, but because Rome had built up its power and created new military tactics. Meanwhile, Alexander's empire became fragmented and easier to conquer.
So, I think that DMs need to figure out how their world works. A key question to ask one's self is how different races think and interact. Also, it is very likely that human-like races will have a variety of cultures with different practices. So, one group of elves may fall to their neighbors and others adopt strategies to prevent that from happening. Some may decide to conquer the lands of their enemies and displace them, or to explore new lands.
Maybe someone can talk about Eberron and its elves. I am familiar with the setting, but I have not played in it. However, elves do have their own island continent, a nation on the main continent of Khorvaire, and are members of nations through out Knorvaire. Indeed, the term Khorvaire as I recall refers to half-elves as a people.
A slight correction: it was in the 2nd IR (Industirial Revolution, a play by post game here at EN World) where the elves of Realmspace for the most part decided to attack Toril for the defeat and genocide of the elves committed in the 1st IR. The elves returned and chose to live among their former enemies, the humanoids, whom they had fought back-to-back against their foes.
However, in the 3rd IR set on Oerth, which I played in, the Elves formed alliances -- as did the other good and neutral races and nations. (The 3rd IR began with limited contact from Toril seeking to share the secrets of technology.) Turrosh Mak was convinced that the use of technology could not only make his nation powerful but cooperating with his neighbors would be better than fighting them. (Thus, Turrosh Mak can be seen as an example of successful diplomacy: appealing to his sense of self-interest and turning an enemy into an ally.) THe elves of Celene, the Ulek states, the Lendores and elsewhere on Oerth worked and fought next to their neighbors and can be considered to have successfully adapted. Indeed, if outside powers such as Mina (the main villain from the more recent Dragonlance books) had not intervened -- many of the evil powers would have fought among themselves to a greater degree. Indeed, they could have been overwhelmed by an alliance of humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings and more enlightened humanoids. (One could argue that they were as an outside power sought to help the peoples of Oerth and the other worlds survive. Elves cannot be seen as the losers in the 3rd IR at least.)
Each DM has to chose how each world works, and that includes the races. A key thing to remember is that intelligent people will often find ways to adapt to new situations. Rome overcame Ancient Greece, not because of Greek philosophy creating weakness, but because Rome had built up its power and created new military tactics. Meanwhile, Alexander's empire became fragmented and easier to conquer.
So, I think that DMs need to figure out how their world works. A key question to ask one's self is how different races think and interact. Also, it is very likely that human-like races will have a variety of cultures with different practices. So, one group of elves may fall to their neighbors and others adopt strategies to prevent that from happening. Some may decide to conquer the lands of their enemies and displace them, or to explore new lands.
Maybe someone can talk about Eberron and its elves. I am familiar with the setting, but I have not played in it. However, elves do have their own island continent, a nation on the main continent of Khorvaire, and are members of nations through out Knorvaire. Indeed, the term Khorvaire as I recall refers to half-elves as a people.
