The problem with elves take 2: A severe condemnation [merged]

Machetaso said:
Very welcome, I'm sorry I can't comment too much on the Elven (?) kingdoms you are talking about because I'm not familiar with the story at all. Sounds pretty detailed though. Are those from your campaign or from WOTC stuff or some D20 company?



Thanks Edena, you just made my day :)

Machetaso

This is going to sound like brown-nosing, but I was always in awe of people who truly understand history, such as yourself (or such as Burke, in the series Connections.)

History is so complicated, such a puzzle, it might as well be calculus. Burke showed that.
I know a little history, but I am not a Historian. You appear to be a full fledged Historian, Machetaso, and my hat is off to you.

As far as creating a history for my elves, I fear all I could accomplish was the usual Nonsense. I did try. I did try to think things out, ask a truly large number of Why questions and answer them, and keep the elves as alien, not human. But in no way do I claim I did a good job.
I think you would have done a good job. (I would be fascinated, to know how your elves would have handled the shock of the loss of half their people in the Solistari War, and upon reading the portents of doom and *not* ignoring them (as my elves did, concerning the Coming of Vecna) taking appropriate action!)

Everything is from my campaign. I do not work for WOTC or any of the d20 companies.
I tried to give an off-handed compliment by using the Greyhawk setting. It was appropriate for the backstory I wrote, whereas the other main campaign settings were not.
I tried to mimick the real world aggression of nations, the drive to produce better weaponry for conquest, and the notion that great occurances come sweeping through carrying all with them.
What truly defined the elves of old Delrune, and the Elves of Haldendreeva, are the conscious choices they made, and the primordial reaction of their bodies, minds, and spirits of their elvish selves, to the sweeping events that took place. And magic, took it's role in the primordial elf, as well as in their conscious decisions.

Your long post deserved a better reply than I gave, and I have some other things to say. But I'm currently under the weather, and it's hampering me. Pardons here.

Yours Sincerely
Edena_of_Neith
 

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Edena_of_Neith said:
Now I ask you, mmadsen ... how would your elves - assuming they were in the place of the fifteen thousand remaining surviving elves of Haldendrea - do? How would they cope? How would they survive?
What answers would they choose? What civilization, if any, would they create? What answer to their problems would they find?

That question goes for the rest of you.

Or, feel free to go back in time in the scenario, to a time when Delrune was less beset, and tell me how your elves would have handled things.
mmadsen is right, you don't seem to see that the PHB gives the basic stats for a member of that race, not a setting or situational basis..

I think though, that this is different than the original post. In the original post you make it seem as if all elves are destined to die because they lack the knowledge and the resources to survive in the world. What you failed to mention is that you are referring to a home-brew world, or your version of the Greyhawk setting.

Of course, if the lands have been ravaged by war, the soil salted, the water poisoned, etc. then yes, things will be harsh if not down right impossible for the remaining elves to eek out a living. However, such a large scale war has problems in and of itself. The numbers of troops that you would require to inflict such devastation would be beyond almost all counting. Such a force of arms would take tons of food from the human lands, more then could be grown in a year since some of the farmers would have been conscripted into service. That is, unless it was the armies of the dead, who don't need to eat. The point is, :):):) for tat. Now your humans can't eek out a good living either and stop all wars because they too have poisoned water, salted farm land, etc.

I don't know the whole history of Greyhawk, but it sounds as if you have invented much of this history yourself for your world or based on your past campaigns. I stand by my original post concerning most elves in a normal setting. It is clear now that you are not talking about a normal setting. In this case, I can't really even comment further because I don't have the knowledge of your world or your elves or the numbers and classes and levels of the surviving elves. If you are looking for a way for the elves to survive under these conditions, then I would need to know the lay of the land, the surrounding lands, relations with the surrounding lands, what exists for natural resources, exactly what they currently import and export, how many elves are in the forest, how many clerics, fighters, mages, rogues, npc classes, etc., what creatures and animals dwell in the forest, what levels, who is their leader, what allies they have, what current enemies., you get the point.

You are not looking for a justification that elves are destined to die in a regular setting as first believed, you are asking, how can these elves in my home-brew world survive because they got screwed by war?
 

Machetaso said:
Does any of this mean that people will start using the historical sources for Elves or anything else? Obviously not, many good historical supplements came out for D20 and they went over like the proverbial lead balloon. But maybe you can use one or two of these concepts for the Elves in your campaign instead of distributing some new Magic item or Spell-like ability to each Elf in your world. Hopefully, some tiny fraction of the no doubt, very bored and irritated people reading this post will actually fade in their hatred for historical sources by some small iota. If even one gamer shifts on degree on that, this will not have been a complete waste of time
Machetaso

Fantastic post! I think you have hit on, and expounded upon, in far more detail and accuracy, several core notions that had been brought up earlier in the thread. But you've really done a good job of adding in strong examples, which really helps.

Banshee
 

(muses)

Looking at the detailed history given above, I see a pattern:

The victors were nations and peoples who:

- Had good leadership and good generals (who knew their strategy and tactics well.)
- Had a large number of soldiers to throw into the war
- Were persistent in fighting wars

I note that, as written, more advanced weapons did not win the wars, necessarily.

The Gauls who sacked Rome were in great number and very persistent.
Rome took Gaul and Britain under an accomplished general, with perseverence and huge numbers.
The Germans destroyed two Roman Legions because they had fine leadership. Rome declined to pursue the war.
Greece fell to Rome in one of the Ten Battles of the World, when the legion proved superior to the phlanx.
Rome finally fell due to internal weakness and the perseverence and numbers of barbarian invaders.
Charlemagne was an able leader and general, making successful war on the Germanic tribes.
The Vikings were extremely perseverent (practically making a new definition to the word), developed a new kind of ship that acted as a superb weapon of war, and employed novel techniques of war. This enabled them to attack or settle from the northern Russian coast through Normandy to Gibraltor to Asia Minor.
Then the Mongols got into the act with novel ways of waging war, novel ways of transporting food and goods, and relentless perseverence. And they almost wiped out Eurasia.
Novgorod was saved by luck and strategic position. The Mongols were stopped short of the city by swamps. The teutonic knights lost when the ice on a lake broke under their weight.


During the Greyhawk Wars (Canon for Greyhawk) Aerdi was unable to win against Nyrond because of poor leadership and poor generals (the good ones got turned into animuses.) Aerdi also did not have persistence, but collapsed into numerous successor states.
Almor, had good leadership and a brilliant general, and invaded and caused damage through Ahlissa, the Nauxes lands, and Medegia. Then Aerdi attacked and through sheer overwhelming force destroyed Almor.
Iuz was neither a good leader nor a good general, but he was reasonably persistent. He wasn't persistent enough: when the siege of Chendl was broken, Iuz retreated to Crockport, and Furyondy withstood his assault.
Turmosh Mak was an able leader and general, and doubled the size of his empire as a result.
The Scarlet Brotherhood pursued a slightly different agenda. Instead of open war, they subjugated other nations by assassination of their leadership, and swift attacks on loyal troops (the rest of the army simply surrendered, typically, after their leadership was gone.) This demonstrated apt leadership and tactics, and persistence. All those hoards of Hempmonalanders were not needed, and remained as backup for the Scarlet Brotherhood.

Now, getting away from the Canon ...

The Solistarim were 700 years in the making.
They had an *extremely* fine leader and capable generals.
They were persistent, in that they spent hundreds of years planning the war, and once in execution they were persistent in waging war.
They about equalled their foes in numbers, so they summoned vast armies of elementals, infernals, and undead to assist them.

Their foes were unaware of the impending attack. The Solistarim gained total surprise.

Their first foe was Iuz. They had a magical fix on the Old One, Gated in, trapped him within magical boundaries, then Soloron himself slew him.
Their second target was Chendl, where King Belvor of Furyondy still reigned. Again they pinpointed his location, Gated in, and killed him. They killed all his family and all high level members of the government as well.
Their third target was Mitrik, and High Priest Hazen of Veluna. The High Priest had omens of impending danger and was prepared, but the force sent was overwhelming. A good part of Mitrik burned in the ensuing battle, but the Solistarim won it. This shattered the government of Veluna.
A very large and determined force struck at the Iron Citadel of Mordenkainen. At great cost, they took the fortress and seized the magic inside, but Mordenkainen escaped and fled.
At the same time, a army of monsters assaulted the capital of Zeif. They took it in a single night of slaughter and red ruin.

Most of the attacking strike forces consisted of the Exalted Wizards of Our Lord, the direct servants of Soloron (not to be confused with exalted characters.) They were accompanied by liches in league with them, beholders, illithid, and the great among the wizards of the dark dwarves and grey gnomes. Many devils, some notable, were among their numbers, along with fire elementals and salamanders.
Last, and not least, dragons morphed into human form came through the Gates, assumed normal form, and attacked.
The army assailing Zeif was different. This army consisted of sahuagin and numerous lesser allies led by aboleth, along with elemental and infernal forces.

The Empire of Iuz was weakened from years of war, it's armies were all deployed southward, Iuz was bending his attention southward (to Furyondy) and the attack came from the north.
Furyondy was very badly weakened from fighting Iuz, the Shieldlands were lost, the northern part of the country was lost, and the rest of the country was in recovery.
Veluna had suffered some losses from the assault from Ket. They had deployed forces to Furyondy to protect it, more forces south to aid Keoland, some of their forces up to the Vesve to help the elves and gnomes there, and their main force was in the west, fronting Ket.
Zeif was intact, but Zeif was expecting no attack. Their fleet was strong (and useless, against an underwater assault on the mainland), their army was strong and scattered throughout the country. They were mostly disinterested, ignoring the warnings of Istus, thinking it had to do with problems from the east - and those problems would have to come through Ekbir and Tusmit and Ket first.

The main aerial assault commenced.
Dragons made up the brunt of this assault, acting somewhat like bombers of today. Devils acted as special forces. Liches and subject powerful undead summoned hosts of lesser undead, and acted as shock troops. Fire, frost, stone, and cloud giants aided them. Efreet, salamanders, and countless fire elementals acted as terror forces. The dark wizards and dark clerics of the Solistarim, of high power and levels, coordinated the attacks using their magic and psionics.
The illithid and dark dwarves and grey gnomes struck from Below. Beholders were Gated in and rampaged like berserkers through the chaos.
The lizard kings were waiting in the forests, and closed in.
And from the sky came the Spelljammers, coodinated assaults from squidships and gith mercenaries and even some neogi.
Above all, the might and power of the Wizard Host (for the Solistarim boasted an enormous standing army of wizards) was deployed to crush any determined resistance.

This main assault was directed at military compounds and outposts. Civilians and civilian targets were generally not struck. Solistari intelligence had located most of the enemy strongholds, and determined which to strike in order to paralyze the enemy country.

In Delrune, the military targets were Archendrea (the northeastern military city), Miralea (the center for magical studies in Delrune), Delphea (the capital city), Lirrendrea (a strategic city in the southwest), and Kindlerock (a strategic city in the northwest.)
The elves of Delrune had a standing army of a few thousand males, out of 325,000. Most of these were in Archendrea, watching for Iuz.
Of these elves, none were above 5th level as warriors, or 9th level as wizards. There were many clerics, up to around 7th level. The one great strength Delrune had was in her bards, and these - in great number - ranged up to 10th level. They were scattered throughout the country.

The Solistarim destroyed most of their military targets within the first few days of the Solistari War.
Targets included areas in Zeif, Ekbir, Tusmit, Ket, Ull, the Spirit Empire of Garnak, Istivar, the Valley of the Mage, many targets in the Yatils, Perrenland, Calrune, Delrune, Chautosbergen, Swantmoor, Veluna, Furyondy, Gran March, Keoland, the Principality of Ulek, the Duchy of Ulek, the County of Ulek, many targets in the Lortmils, targets in the Kron Hills, Celene, and Verbobonc.

Neutrality was immediately offered Greyhawk City, Nyrond, the Duchy of Urnst, and the County of Urnst.
These nations accepted, for suddenly Aerdi and the Scarlet Brotherhood was on their doorstep and a colossal war behind them. (And had Ivid taken the initiative, and had Aerdi been united, perhaps it could have dealt with these nations for once and all.)
Thus, the central and eastern Flanaess were locked out of the war.

But Turrosh Mak took the initiative and invaded Celene. Likewise, the drow and giants took the initiative (although the Solistarim indicated the drow were their enemies) and invaded Keoland.

Then main army of the Solistarim, composed of shock troops of undead, elementals, fiends, dark dwarves, dark gnomes, the non-wizard and non-clerical human forces of the Solistarim, giants, sahuagin, lizard men, lizard kings, and numerous others, swept south from the Godspires through their forward bases in Blackmoor and across the Burneal (or came in from the skies and oceans, or from Below), and assaulted the Empire of Iuz.
The main strike forces, having accomplished their initial tasks, joined the assault. In a matter of weeks the western one third of the Empire of Iuz fell, including Doraaka and Molag, and the Solistarim held the Whyestil. The humanoid armies were massacred (the Solistarim had no use for orcs, goblins, trolls, ogres, and so on ... there would be no place for them in the new world the Solistarim hoped to build.)

By this time, other nations in the Flanaess had mounted defenses against attack. Armies were marshalled. Wizards and clerics and others made ready, in case the Solistarim came their way.

Then the Skydwellers attacked.
Striking from on high, in their Flying Citadels, the Skydwellers rained an eager array of destruction down on the cities of the east. It is a known fact the Lord of the Skydwellers was in league with Soloron, and the timing of this attack was no surprise.
The Scarlet Brotherhood later reported this fact. They should have known, since they were in secret league with the Skydwellers (to later destroy the Solistarim) and struck from the ground and sea just as the Skydwellers hit from above.
The central and eastern parts of the Flanaess descended into anarchy.

You would have thought that all the nations would have united against these enemies. But no: old feuds held. Ivid had shed too much blood.
North Province wanted Ratik. The humanoids of the Bone March wanted Nyrond. The Ice Elves of the Adri broke free and massacred half the denizens in the forest. Ivid lashed out at all comers. The vampire lord (see the Ivid the Undying supplement) led the forces of his necropolis against Ivid. Drax the Invulnerable invaded the Grandwood. Naelax struck north and west. Ahlissa assaulted Nyrond and Irongate. Sunndi invaded Naelax. The Sea Barons were in league with the Skydwellers and gleefully took advantage of the confusion to raid and plunder.

But in Greyhawk City, a renown figure there called southward for help, and Varnaith - an equatorial nation of tremendous power - answered the call. So did it's longtime ally, Nippon and it's Dominion.
The Elvish Imperial Navy of Greyspace came to the aid of Celene, and was drawn into the greater war. They would defeat the scro in Greyspace, and then bring their big guns to bear on the combat below.

The Solistarim ground forces roared southwest through Perrenland, then Calrune and western Delrune (the western half), and on into Veluna. Another great force swept into Furyondy. The great strike forces, dragons and archmages leading, were in the forefront.
Veluna and Furyondy both fell in a sea of fire and wreckage.
In the west, Zeif fell, the sahuagin raged into Ekbir and Tusmit, and more Solistari shock forces came down the coast to join up with them.

The Spirit Empire of Garnak conjured up an enormous force. Enormous is the only word. They called upon their ancestors, and their ancestors came. So did whole legions of forests (Garnak was heavily forested, unlike the steppes about.) Istivar had survived the strikes and joined Garnak.
The combined host roared north to give battle.

Now the battle lines stretched from Verbobonc (besieged) in the east across Bissel (the Kettish occupiers fled for it, leaving hapless Bissel undefended), to the Valley of the Mage (the Mage went into hiding.)
The Solistarim extended their gains. Soon, the battlelines extended from Sterich through northern Keoland across the Lortmils to the Wild Coast. (Turrosh Mak tried to join the Solistarim, but his messengers were simply shot on sight.)
However, Keoland and the dwarves and elves of the Lortmils were suddenly and dramatically reinforced, as the hosts of Varnaith and Nippon arrived via magic. And Varnaith also had fine commanders, a vast army, and enough magical might to equal a quarter of that of the Solistarim.
The elvish navy of Greyspace joined Varnaith in defending Keoland. Some good dragons joined the war, mainly at the behest of the elves of Varnaith. The Pearl elves marched up out of the sea to join on Nippon's side. And in the west, the titanic army of Garnak crashed through the Solistari lines in the Plains of the Paynims.

The war went on for months from that point, with assaults and battles and slaughter all the way from Hyperboria in the polar regions to Varnaith at the equator. All sides suffered severely.
The Solistarim had spent centuries fortifying their cities, both surface and underground, in the Godspires. These could not be taken. The sahuagin did not fare as well, or Blackmoor, or the dwellings of the lizard men and kings, but the main Solistari citadels repelled the assaults.
But the Solistari were stretched as far as they could go, against multiple enemies. With the Pearl Empire, Nippon Dominion, Varnaith, the Spirit Empire of Garnak all against them, and the Elven Imperial Navy of Greyspace against them, and Keoland and the Lortmils fighting like mad, they found they could not push further south.
The battle lines stalled, then flexed north and south as either side made gains, laying waste to successive region after region as the armies fought back and forth. The corpses of hundreds of thousands littered the Oerth, then those of several million, and still the fighting continued.

The Solistarim suffered one setback. They slew the drow wherever they found them, so the drow declared war on the Solistarim. An irony, drow and elf in alliance. But the drow and their giant allies then struck out of Geoff and Sterich, in the Yatils, and against the Godspires themselves.
The Solistarim had to readjust their battle strategy, to deal with this new and powerful (and, unfortunately, disorganized - despite the efforts of a certain drow priestess) foe.

In a stroke of luck, said mysterious figure from Greyhawk, was able to strike down Soloron in the midst of battle.

Without their leader, fearful of collapse of the behavioral-modifying magics that welded them - incompatible races - together, all the Solistarim elected retreat.
Their foes magically pursued them to the Godspires, and launched an all out assault.
The assault failed, the attackers were massacred, the Solistarim held together - although greatly weakened - and the exhausted attackers fell back.
The Solistarim then assailed the encampments of their enemies. Those attacks, partially succeeded.

The alliance against the Solistarim fortified a line from Geoff to Keoland to the central Lortmils. (Turrosh Mak retrenched in the Pomarj.) They did not attempt to advance north, but fortified or rebuilt cities and bases as they could south of that line.
Having retaken all the Baklunish lands, Garnak and Istivar fortified and readied against any future war. They did not waste effort assaulting the Godspires, but did not discount any new assaults.

In the east: Beaten, the Skydwellers withdrew. The Alliance of Oerth had formed. Nations yet further east halted their fighting. The Scarlet Brotherhood, consolidated gains.

The Solistari War ended.

(In all that, the Vesve Forest and Clatspurs were virtually untouched, and Chauntosbergen took only minor damage. Somehow they were passed by ... along with the eastern half of Delrune.)

What decided the Solistari War?

1: Leadership.
2: Luck.
3: Sheer firepower.
4: Perseverence (or lack of it)
5: Sheer numbers.
 

Edena_of_Neith said:
...Again, the Game Mechanics provide a simple solution to an insurmountable problem: Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion, Elven Version (it is mentioned, too, somewhere in the supplements.)
You can cast that spell and make it permanent a lot of times on a single tree. Which means there may be far more elves than meets the eye (Forrester, eat your heart out.)
Or the elves could dig down and cast the spell on tree roots, then cover and ward that entrance. Perhaps the elves could find a way to make all the different Mansions interconnect, producing an extra-dimensional realm from which they sojourn into the forest for the joy of green and sun.
Add appropriate background and other Fluff, and you could have a viable city of countless thousands in the middle of nowhere.

Now here's a thought ... could one make the Mansion so it was entirely dirt, so the 'land' inside it could be farmed? Thus, a vast network of little extradimensional farms, and never so much as a leave of the actual forest harmed or a single berry plucked?

The point is, the game mechanics make the impossible into the feasible once more.

I really like the idea of an entire campaign played running through extradimensional spaces like that. Kinda like plane hopping but instead of switching planes your switching between various bags of holding and mansions. Reminds me of the War of the Bag from Knights of the Dinner Table. :D

Oh and to keep it on topic a solution I had in one campaign was to give them a gestation period just like a human but they are only fertile if their surrounding environment can support the baby. So if the forest can't feed another elf the elves bodies just don't make any more till the situation changes. Also the elves didn't last much longer then humans but there was technically no upper limit to their age so the handful of elves that avoided premature death were OLD.
 

Bloosquig said:
I really like the idea of an entire campaign played running through extradimensional spaces like that. Kinda like plane hopping but instead of switching planes your switching between various bags of holding and mansions. Reminds me of the War of the Bag from Knights of the Dinner Table. :D

Oh and to keep it on topic a solution I had in one campaign was to give them a gestation period just like a human but they are only fertile if their surrounding environment can support the baby. So if the forest can't feed another elf the elves bodies just don't make any more till the situation changes. Also the elves didn't last much longer then humans but there was technically no upper limit to their age so the handful of elves that avoided premature death were OLD.

I tried to keep the elves - even the Elves of Haldendreeva - distinct from the Faerie in this respect by defining as follows:
- A group of elves could live in a Mordenkainen's Mansion cast on a tree.
- A dryad lives in a tree, and the *entire tree* is considered a Mordenkainen's Mansion (and then some, by about a factor of 10 to 100) for her and those she has charmed or invited in, only. Adventurers trying to 'force' their way into a dryad's personal retreat, will find only the mundane interior of a tree, not an extradimensional space.
In that way, I tried to distinguish elves from Faerie.

In old Delrune, the elves did not have access to Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion.
The elves built cities of crystal, somehow growing it magically right out of the earth and into towering buildings, open in many places to the surrounding trees and open air.
The elves also exported a large number of finished crystal items: crystalware (trenchers, spoons, knives, forks), crystalline plates, crystalline furniture (not fragile), crystalline lighting pieces, usually with lights of multcolored hues included, crystalline plows with metal parts (the elves could not make the crystalline rock sharp enough to use as a knife or cutting tool), other crystalline items, and they would contract out to build (or grow) crystalline structures or large items elsewhere.
Of course, the elves exported other items, but crystalline stone was one of the big exports, and what Delrune was most famous for.
The love of architecture, of building, of creating fantastic pieces of art and craftsmanship, of statues and monuments, was never lost. It remains in the Elves of Haldendreeva today.

The elves of Delrune were able to create magical stepping stone roads with their crystals.
They placed them at long intervals, cast dimension door on them, and then cast a secret second spell on them (it happened to be blink), and the result was permanent.
One walked normally, stepping from crystalline stone to crystalline stone. Each 'step' whisked you 50 feet through the forest. Once you grew accustomed to the disorientating effects, you found you could walk vast distances in a hurry, typically from one Delrunian city to another.
Horses and wagons had to take more mundane paths, which the elves very reluctantly built through the forests.
 

Bloosquig said:
Oh and to keep it on topic a solution I had in one campaign was to give them a gestation period just like a human but they are only fertile if their surrounding environment can support the baby. So if the forest can't feed another elf the elves bodies just don't make any more till the situation changes. Also the elves didn't last much longer then humans but there was technically no upper limit to their age so the handful of elves that avoided premature death were OLD.

The elves of old Delrune spent 2 years as infants, 3 years as toddlers, 15 more years as children, 80 years as adolescents, 900 years as young adults, 500 years as mature (30 to 40 human equivalent), 250 years in 'middle age', and 250 years as old, before the Call of Arvandor set in around 2,000 years of age. The oldest elves lived to about 2,500, the youngest 1,800.
The elves married for life, typically. If one's mate was lost, the other elf very often faded away to Arvandor, or remained in sad shape. Extremely rarely, a second mate was found. Divorce simply did not occur.
Average children per couple was 2 in an entire lifetime. More than 3 was almost unheard of. Gestation time was 2 years.

The elves of old Delrune had the need to eat like humans. But magic (there was a lot of low level magic in Delrune, just not any high level magic) supplied their staple foods, making Delrune heavily self sufficient foodwise.
Specialty foods based on grain crops, sugar, spices, and other exotic food and drink were obtained through trade, especially through Calrune.
Few elves ate any sort of meat. Those few generally ate fish.
 

DM-Rocco said:
mmadsen is right, you don't seem to see that the PHB gives the basic stats for a member of that race, not a setting or situational basis..

I think though, that this is different than the original post. In the original post you make it seem as if all elves are destined to die because they lack the knowledge and the resources to survive in the world. What you failed to mention is that you are referring to a home-brew world, or your version of the Greyhawk setting.

snip


Ok, time to reply to this post, piece by piece.

You are quite right. The 3rd Edition Player's Handbook gives the basic stats of the race, not any setting or situational modifiers.

If you look at what I've been writing, and consider the historical posts by others, you'll see something very fundamental:

The elves can get caught up in *larger events.*
And these larger events can whelm the elves, fundamentally altering them or even destroying them. (In this case, the larger event first altered, then destroyed old Delrune, and saw the rise of Haldendreeva.)

*Larger events* are a commonplace occurance in our real world, and examples are numerous and some are given in posts by others in this thread.
Larger events are also commonplace in the official settings and their histories, and in home campaigns, including most I played in.

This does not mean ALL home settings are swept by larger events. It does not mean the elves are doomed.
It could mean that an elven nation like Delrune, might be in trouble if larger events involving war came sweeping their way.

I would argue that any ECL 0 race, including the human race, has the same problem, especially if the campaign is truly High Fantasy, such as Dragonlance.
In Dragonlance, we see the world devastated by the Cataclysm. Then it is actually sterilized by Raistlin, but Tasslehoff alters time so this does not happen. Then Father Chaos returns and Krynn is nearly destroyed by him. Then Takhisis whisks the planet away and it nearly becomes her private playground for the rest of eternity.
In this kind of situation, ECL 0 races are going to have a hard time. Ansalon was depopulated, humans and elves and all, by the repeated disasters and wars.

If you go with many 'classic' conceptions of elves, unfortunately (you know what I mean ...) the elves are unable to cope with the larger events and are destroyed by them, whereas humanity is better able to cope and adapt and survives.
You do not have to go with any concept of elves but your own. So I cannot argue elves are doomed, in your home campaign!
But they sure are having a hard time of it in the official settings. Take a good long look at the mess they are in, on Aebrinis, Athas, Krynn, Oerth, Toril, in Ravenloft, and in Wildspace. And it is mostly because they cannot adapt, cannot cope, or have lousy leadership, few numbers, and a lack of determination and persistence ... or all of the above.
 

(long article, bunch of nonsense :) )

DM-Rocco said:
snip

Of course, if the lands have been ravaged by war, the soil salted, the water poisoned, etc. then yes, things will be harsh if not down right impossible for the remaining elves to eek out a living. However, such a large scale war has problems in and of itself. The numbers of troops that you would require to inflict such devastation would be beyond almost all counting. Such a force of arms would take tons of food from the human lands, more then could be grown in a year since some of the farmers would have been conscripted into service. That is, unless it was the armies of the dead, who don't need to eat. The point is, :):):) for tat. Now your humans can't eek out a good living either and stop all wars because they too have poisoned water, salted farm land, etc.

It is notable that Greyhawk has some exceptions to the above.
For example, Aerdi had the force necessary to totally obliterate Medegia while still fighting Nyrond and the Duchy and County of Urnst. Then again, Aerdi was a vast nation.
This business of the total destruction of enemy nations and the complete massacre of their people is not unique to Greyhawk. It is all too common in our own real world history.
In the case of Medegia, it was worse than merely land salted, water poisoned, etc. The ghosts and spirits of the dead haunted the land, magical madness afflicted travellers going in, and other things of this sort occurred.
Yes, Aerdi could not sustain the war for long. No nation involved could. Compliments of Ivid, Aerdi couldn't even stay together, but fragmented.

The Solistarim compensated for the food problem in several ways:

- They spent centuries building up food stocks.
- They hid their food stocks in places throughout many worlds and planes.
- They relied on magic for further food.
- They relied on captured prisoners for food, for large numbers of their troops (illithid and beholders, for example.)

The Solistarim burned forests and fields and leveled settlements, but they did *not* poison the land.
They wanted that land, unspoiled, for themselves.

I don't know the whole history of Greyhawk, but it sounds as if you have invented much of this history yourself for your world or based on your past campaigns.

Starting just after the Greyhawk Wars, which are canon, it changed from canon to a house setting as I altered history. For example, Greater Ahlissa never became the successor nation to Aerdi, which is the canon.

I stand by my original post concerning most elves in a normal setting. It is clear now that you are not talking about a normal setting.

Then pity the elves of Krynn, Toril, Oerth, and Athas, for theirs is a sad lot.
The only reason any of them are still alive is mainly because humankind (and many other powerful races) simply haven't decided to exterminate them yet, or because humankind (on Krynn and Athas) simply hasn't quite yet finished the job of extermination.
If that is normal, and I would guess the official settings would describe themselves as normal, then take pity on the elves!

And no, the elves retaking Cormanthor does not mitigate what I've said.
The elves have retaken Cormanthor. If any strong nation or group (Cormyr, the Zhentarim, etc.) wanted them back out of Cormanthor, out they would be. If Myth Drannor could not withstand the grand events, these pathetic few won't do so.

In this case, I can't really even comment further because I don't have the knowledge of your world or your elves or the numbers and classes and levels of the surviving elves. If you are looking for a way for the elves to survive under these conditions, then I would need to know the lay of the land, the surrounding lands, relations with the surrounding lands, what exists for natural resources, exactly what they currently import and export, how many elves are in the forest, how many clerics, fighters, mages, rogues, npc classes, etc., what creatures and animals dwell in the forest, what levels, who is their leader, what allies they have, what current enemies., you get the point.

I have given a great deal of it's history, but I admit I can't flesh it out in this thread.
There were 325,000 elves in Delrune. Delrune was 100 miles north-south, 75 miles east-west, for a total of 75,000 square miles.
98% of the elves of Delrune lived in cities (Archendrea, Miralea, Delphea, Starleev, Harpmotes, Lirrendrea, Kindlerock, Sunleai, Haldendrea, and others) with an average population density of 5,000 per square mile. Thus, these cities occupied around 65 square miles of Delrune.
2% of the population lived, with permission from the authorities and the blessing of the Faerie, within the forests.
A large Faerie population of over ten thousand existed within Delrune, along with a large population of magical beasts and animals of good and neutral nature. (Yes, the rare unicorn rider occurred.)
Forests covered 80% of Delrune. Of the remainder, most was natural meadowland (trees would not grow in the northwest, for unknown reasons) and a sizeable centaur population lived there, under the rulership of Delrune.

Delrune was hilly, with the hills slowly rising into the Clatspur Mountains on the east side, the range running north-south and protecting Delrune from attack in that direction (Archendrea guarded the one pass through, and Chauntosbergen laid claim to, and protected, a great part of the range south of Archendrea.)
A range of mountains rose in the north - running east-west but falling swiftly into the lowlands of Calrune on the west end, and these were the home of several groups of marauding giants. Wary of these giants, the elves created a defensive line of watchposts and manned them. But attacks were few and far between. The Greyhawk Wars saw a sharp attack into Delrune by these giants, but they were stopped before they did much damage, mostly by the actions of the Faerie. No passes existed through this northern range.
To the west and southwest of Delrune lay a large lowland, the valley through which the river that drained Lake Quag came meandering south. This was the realm of Calrune, a partially grain intensive human society, partially centaur society, and partially merfolk society (living in a lake in the midst of the realm.) Calrune was extremely friendly to Delrune, no border existed in any real sense, and trade was heavy between these nations, especially since Calrune imported in vast amounts of goods up the river from the Nyr Dyv through Furyondy and Swantmoor. Around 100,000 humans, 5,000 centaur, and 10,000 merfolk lived in Calrune. Very little forest existed in Calrune, having been removed for grain crops long ago.
To the south of Delrune, the hills gave way to small hillocks and rolling land. This was Swantmoor, a gnomish nation. The gnomes were also friendly to Delrune, and no distinct border really existed. The gnomes, living in underground burrows (far larger than halfling burrows) were glad to expedite trade, while shielding Delrune from Furyondy. Several tens of thousands of gnomes lived in small Swantmoor.
In the mountains east of Delrune, as mentioned, was Chauntosbergen, the great underground dwarven city and civilization. It went over 10 miles down, and spread across the surface up and down the mountains. These good aligned high dwarves were on peaceful terms with Delrune, but rarely visited (and the elves rarely visited Chauntosbergen.) Travellers were welcome, but the elves and dwarves looked upon each other's cultures as being unpleasant, respectively, so they did not stay long.
Chautosbergen was an important exporter of raw metals and raw precious metals to Delrune.
Chautosbergen had 25,000 dwarves living in the city, and 50,000 more in the surrounding mountains and Below.
Incidentally, east of Chautosbergen was the Vesve Forest, and it was as per the canon.

In total military terms, if Furyondy rated a 10, Veluna an 8, Gran March a 3, and Bissel a 2, then:

Delrune = 2
Calrune = 2
Swantmoor = 1
Chautosbergen = 4

The climate of Delrune was magically created, through the efforts of the Faerie who lived there.
The climate was warm temperate, with long warm summers, short cool winters, and distinct seasons. Highs and lows averaged in the 70s and 60s in summer, and in the 50s and 40s in the winter. Frost and snow occurred during the winter, and gentle rains and the occasional heavy rain and thunderstorm occurred in the summer.

The moderation extended to Calrune, in lesser form: summer highs and lows were in the 80s and 60s, and winter highs and lows in the 40s and 30s. Snow and rain occurred in the winter, and heavy thunderstorms in the summer.

In the mountains east of Delrune, summers were marked by violent storms, and winters by blizzards. Temperatures were moderated as per Delrune, but fell with elevation.

In the mountains *north* of Delrune, the climate quickly grew chilly as you proceeded into them, with short cool summers and long, cold winters. Summer highs were in the 70s and lows in the 50s, and winter highs were in the teens and lows near 0. This was in the hills; up at high altitudes it was far worse. Heavy snow fell in the winter, and terrible violent thunderstorms in the summer.

After the Greyhawk Wars:

Only a few thousand elves out of the entire population of Delrune were classed as adventurers (core PHB classes.) The rest had NPC classes, almost universally under 10th level.
Fighters were generally 1st level. A very few were 2nd level. A rare handful were 3rd, 4th, and 5th level.
Rangers were few, and generally 1st or 2nd level. A very few ranged up to 5th level.
There were 3 or 4 paladins, of moderate level (around 6th.)
No barbarians existed in Delrune, amongst the elves.
A fair number of clerics existed, with levels up to 5th. A handful of clerics existed, with levels up to 7th. A couple were 8th level. The highest was 9th level.
A large number of neutral good druids existed, with levels up to 5th, and a few up to 9th level. Almost no true neutral druids existed, and no neutral evil druids.
A large number of wizards existed, with levels up to 5th. A few were up to 7th level. A handful were up to 9th level.
Bards were the most common adventuring class. More than half were 3rd level or higher. 5th through 7th level was common. A few had made it to 10th level.
Very few monks were in Delrune. These few ranged from 1st through 7th level. No monkish orders existed, and elves who left to become monks never returned to Delrune, as a rule.

Delrune imported, among other things: finished swords and armor, raw metals, raw precious metals, timber, foodstuffs based on grains and a number of specialty foods and drink, wine (the elves did not make their own; unusual for elves), papyrus and parchment, ink, leather and leather goods, rope, tapestries, objects of art, books or copies of books, and so on.
Delrune exported, among other things: Crystalline items (described in a prior post), magical scrolls and potions, copies of books, copies of poetry, wooden furniture, wooden art and decorative objects, wooden lighting items, musical instruments made of wood and metal, statues (of crystal rock or other substances), worked gemstones and jewelry (in very small amounts), specialty items from the forest (rare), specialty items from the Faerie (very rare, and very valuable, and traded only with permission and to friends outside Delrune), clothing of all types of a substance unique to the Delrunian Highlands and uniquely elven made, glass and glass products (including windows and installation, which was priceless), mosquito nets and woven nets of the same substance as clothing was made of, and so on.

The 98% of the elves living in the cities lived, for the most part, in great crystalrock towers that rose above the trees, often connected to each other by abutments, ornamental and aestetic in nature, with the natural world all around. Great openings abounded, along with glassed windows. Ornamental, multicolored lights of a magical nature lit up the cities, so there were visible for many miles (astrologers and astronomers, the elves were not.)
Many generations of a single family lived in the great towers. An inhuman level of closeness, lack of privacy, and cooperation and harmony existed. Crime was rare (thieves were subject to reorientation (gentle brainwashing)) and murder almost non-existent (when one did occur, if the assassin was caught he was sent to the Faerie as punishment, and rarely ever came back.)
Travel was by the surface and by skyways. Commerce was paramount, although elves varied immensely in how long they worked, or how hard, and even more in how good they were at creating items. Celebrations and festivals were common, occurring at least weekly. Religious services occurred weekly.
An immense amount of total time spent, was spent in the raising of children. Children were prized above all other things, both by law and by elven nature. Elven parents doted on their children, were gentle, were patient, protected adolescents from themselves as they could (the authorities *gently* worked with them on this), and otherwise fought to be the best parents they could be. Child abuse in the normal sense was unheard of.
Women were prohibited from fighting (they could hold office; ignore my earlier comment on that.) Women could become fighters or mages or any other class; they simply were not allowed to use those skills to fight.
The elven women of Delrune were accustomed to this law and never questioned it.

The King ruled over Delrune, in a benevolent dictatorship. Working with him were his advisors, and his Queen.
Under them were the elven families entrusted with the rulership of Delrune's many cities. (Ownership of land was not a relevant factor, and wealth did not bring power nearly so much as in human societies, so true nobility did not exist.)
Under them was a small force of people designated as what we would call law enforcement. The small criminal justice system of Delrune was composed of these elves, and the ruling families would judge if requested to, or in special cases.
A large governmental bureacracy did not exist. For the most part, elves were self-governing and the cities independent.
Taxes were judged a human institution and unnecessary. The King raised money through his own trading company, in essence putting him in competition with his own people.

Service in the army was voluntary. The level of discipline and effort required to be in the army was quite small compared to anything demanded of a human soldier. Volunteers typically had little discipline, little fortitude, but strong morale (as they were fighting for fellow elves.)
After the Greyhawk Wars, discipline and effort increased greatly, as Delrune attempted to field a respectable army. Their efforts paid poor dividends, however, despite a fair number of volunteers.

The culture of the centaur people involved a very loose government bowing to the King of Delrune, and their own way of living. They rarely intermingled with the elves.
The culture of the Faerie varied from race to race, but all paid homage to Oberon and Titania. They were nominal subjects of the King of Delrune, but in effect were independent.
The 2% of the elven people living in the forests, often visited the Faerie or worked actively with them. Many others were students of the natural world. Still others were on personal quests involving travel and interaction with strangers. A few were Watchers on the borders.

Calrune had a cosmopolitan culture similar to Renaissance England - under a strong King - except far less harsh for commoners and middle class alike. Calrune was constantly full of merchants, visitors, and the occasional envoy.
Unlike Delrune, Calrune maintained a strong, disciplined army (their wealth through trading made it possible) and a strong secret service. Their secret service was experienced and well travelled, and worked hard, since Calrune was filled with agents from other lands.
Calrune considered Delrune an indespensible (if incomprehensible) source for certain goods and services, and the policy was to 'protect' the elves.
Calrune also considered Chauntosbergen an indespensible source for metal, and the trade routes went through Delrune. Ensuring the well-being of the elves was paramount.

Swantmoor had a bustling and relatively cosmopolitan set of cities, composed of mines, burrows and aboveground buildings. Production of items of all manner was the norm, and life was fast and busy (and occasionally uproarous.)
A small army existed, partially to aid Furyondy and partially to protect *from* Furyondy. But during the Greyhawk Wars, Swantmoor was threatened by Iuz to the east, and a large army was raised. Iuz did not attack and fell back, and Swantmoor turned it's new soldiers to the production of war materials. Food shortages occurred, and a major effort had to be made to clear the land for farming and produce underground farms.
A ruling council governs Swantmoor. Their decisions are passed on to the local level. The pre-war beaucracy has been replaced with a more martial system, due to necessity and hunger.

Chautosbergen consists of a single large dwarven city, and a number of smaller towns connected by tunnels (roads) to the main hub. Great mines extend outward and down. Surface settlements are military in nature.
Chauntosbergen is dwarven, and martial. All dwarves are trained in warfare, a large force of clerics is readied, but the dwarves are lacking in wizards (they are attempting to learn, but few seem to have much aptitude for it.)
Great underground farms and cattle ranches exist, well protected from attack. Great smithies and forges in the main hub produce an unending array of weapons, armor, and items of necessity. Prior to the Greyhawk Wars, far more peacetime goods were produced, but now few are, and life has grown more austere.
The dwarves actively participated in the Greyhawk Wars, helping to hold the southern Vesve out of Iuz's reach, building military bases throughout and under the mountains, establishing scout perimeters above and within the Clatspur range and in the Vesve, and establishing mutual defensive treaties with Delrune, Calrune, Highfolk, Veluna, and Furyondy, as well as the peoples of the Vesve.
The dwarves, as a result, have a fair number of fighters between levels 5 and 9, and a few between 10 and 14. Some of their clerics exceed 10th level.
The dwarves consider the elves of Delrune to be children to be protected, and protected from themselves if possible. They are condescending, but hide it well enough.


You are not looking for a justification that elves are destined to die in a regular setting as first believed, you are asking, how can these elves in my home-brew world survive because they got screwed by war?

Because they were caught up in events not of their making, events not of their choosing, and certainly not of their liking, but caught up nevertheless.
And escape was not an option.
The elves of Delrune found the world crashing most rudely into their sheltered world, and there wasn't a thing they could do to stop it. After the crashing stopped and half of them were dead, the rest fell apart.
They simply could not cope with it. Their society collapsed, government failed, and terror prevailed. It lead to evil rising in Delrune, elves turning to the darkness, elves lured by Lolth into her service, the Faerie abandoning their former friends and allies to their fate.
For 20 years Delrune languished in semi-anarchy, torn apart by rival factions worshipping conflicting powers, while some uncorrupted elves and a very few Faerie tried to turn things around.
Then Vecna came, and no power the elves possessed was sufficient to save them, and Lolth's power - like Lolth herself - proved it's irrational uselessness.
 

fusangite said:
The professor I worked with on the issue was Dr. Paige Raibmon. It has been several years since I worked with her so I'm not remembering the sources on this stuff that do comparitive work. The most recent stuff I read on Northwest Coast populations is actually literature about the continent-wide smallpox epidemic of the 1750s reaching the area; so that might be a good place to start.Indeed, it's Diamond's zoonotic assertions that medical doctors, historians and geneticists have been challenging for the past 10 years.

Diamond's theory that any long term packing of people with domestic animals at close quarters will ultimately produce new diseases is problematic in two ways:
(a) this does not seem to be how the original zoonotic processes giving rise to TB, smallpox, etc. seems to have arisen; the transfer of these diseases from animals to humans appears to have preceded domestication
(b) population density positively correlates to spread rates but that's about as far as it goes

As I mention further on, resistance is highest in populations with high rates of trade and movement per capita. The Mexico Valley, despite having stayed denser for longer than anywhere else on earth did not develop any such resistances, in part, because the rates of movement and trade per capita were extremely low and, mostly, because the exceptionally low genetic diversity of Native Americans and the emergence of TB, influenza and smallpox in Eurasia were more a "luck of the draw" thing than evidence of some big generalizeable pattern about trade axes, urbanization or most of Diamond's other theories.

The problem is that Diamond wants to find an explanation for the conquest of the Americas that is systemic rather than coincidental and so he therefore enumerates all the ways that Eurasian and American societies were different from one another and, in most cases, mistakenly infers that these differences were important structural determinants.

The elves of Delrune lived in high densities, but were not subject to disease.
A lot of little clerical magic protected them.

The elves who survived the Greyhawk Wars, were quite subject to disease. Despite using the dark powers of Lolth and others, they found disease flourishing amongst them, and in the ruined lands around Delrune (where plagues now roamed.)

The elves who survived the Coming of Vecna, did not live with disease: disease, infestation, and starvation *were* life. Until they developed agnakok abilities out of the inner strength, derived from their quintennsial elvishness, after which disease and infestation once more - this time forever - faded out of their lives.
Not many were left by then.

Disease was common in Calrune, and a problem. In Calrose, the capital city, epidemics broke out constantly, and clerics had to battle them down.
In Swantmoor, gnomish clerics held disease at bay, until the food shortage hit, and then the whole disease/hunger situation in general worsened.
In Chautosbergen, the dwarves were afflicted with strange illnesses from Below, but the numerous clerics held these from becoming epidemics. As the dwarves strengthened and the number of their clerics grew during the Greyhawk Wars, disease lessened.

Of course, modern medicine did not exist. Indeed, the proliferation of clerics saw a lack of research into mundane cures in Delrune and Swantmoor. In Chauntosbergen, more of an effort to produce common mundane cures was made. In Calrune, an intensive effort was made and paid off.

Of course, after the Solistari War, neither Calrune nor Swantmoor existed anymore, so it became irrelevant. In Chautosbergen, which suffered heavily from the first (and only) strike from the Solistarim, disease was contained. After thousands killed were buried in solemn ceremony, the clergy held off the epidemics and grim personal illnesses afflicting all their neighbors.

After the Solistari War, being away from a city didn't help very much, against disease.
Millions of corpses lay rotting everywhere. Rivers were poisoned by these bodies, and by soot from fires. Marauders pursued refugees, and disease stalked both. Monsters freely roamed everywhere, some eating the dead and carrying disease. Forests were burned and cities laid waste, so no safe food was to come by.
As the lands changed, became poisoned by the sheer amount of blood shed and began to react in protest, so the vegetation that grew back turned sickly, waters fouled, and even the rainwater was laced with grit and soot from volcanic eruptions. Disease became more prevalent than ever before.
 

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