Jim Hague said:
And pretty much confined to that, since you've stacked the deck against them...
Yep. Life is not fair in my setting.
The 'classic' elves of the canon setting had their chance to obtain power to protect themselves. I ruled that they didn't use the time granted them for that purpose, because of the historical canon and because of the portrayal of the 'classic' elf.
The events I decreed happened afterwards, were thus inevitable. Poor elves. Feel sorry for them?
Nope. Once again, despite multiple posts to the contrary, you're viewing it through your own fractured logic and not the actual rules or settings. Elves seem to be doing quite well in the majority of settings, canon and not. Of course, since you keep cherry picking your facts, you claim the contrary...even if it isn't true at all.
This post will, definitely, count as a Debate Rebuttal of your statement above.
*You are incorrect, and I am correct. Here is the proof I cite: *
Birthright Setting: The elves have been driven from the majority of their lands on the northern continent (the continent the setting is on.)
Dark Sun Setting: Elven civilization was wiped out, along with most of the elves, by Rajaat and his armies in the Clensing Wars. The remnant are reduced to nomadic tribes, eeking out a living in the desert waste. Almost all their culture and lore has been lost, and they are now little higher than animals.
Dragonlance Setting: Southern Ergoth, home of the Kagonesti, is now frozen and the Kagonesti driven away or killed. Qualinesti and it's high elven civilization are destroyed, the remnant of it's people homeless. Silvanesti is under enemy occupation and it's people enslaved. (No other major surface elven enclaves exist on Ansalon. On Taladas, the humans have taken the best parts of that continent for themselves.)
Greyhawk Setting: The elves rule in the tiny Duchy of Ulek, tiny Celene, the city of Highfolk, the Lendore Isles, and in tribal fashion in the Vesve Forest. Some are scattered around elsewhere, especially in Veluna. Of these places, Highfolk is directly threatened by Ket, Veluna by Ket, Celene and the Duchy of Ulek by Turrosh Mak and his orcish empire, and the Lendore Isles by the Sea Barons, the Thillronian barbarians, North Province, and especially Greater Ahlissa. Humans dominate in most of the large areas, including the Baklunish lands, Furyondy/Veluna/Keoland, Perrenland, Nyrond, the County and Duchy of Urnst, North Kingdom, Greater Ahlissa, Sunndi, the Thillronian Peninsula, and the Tilvanot Peninsula, not to mention the Sea Baron and Sea Princes islands and the Hold of the Sea Princes. Humans also dominate in Hempmonaland, as far as is known. The Greyhawk Wars not only killed a large number of humans, but also a lot of elves, and there were far fewer elves to start out with.
Forgotten Realms: The elves hold Evermeet, Evereska, and Cormanthor (and some secret hideouts elsewhere.) All of these places have been invaded, and Evereska and Cormanthor are devastated by war. Other races hold pretty much everywhere else. If it wasn't for humans intervening to save their sorry hides, the elves of Evereska would have fallen to the phaerimm.
Mystara: The elves hold Alfheim. The shadow elves hold an underground realm. Other races, mostly human, hold the rest. If these other nations wanted the elves of Alfheim gone, they would be gone tomorrow (hopefully, spirited away by the immortals to the Hollow World, but who says they wouldn't be attacked there?)
Planescape: Elves seem to dominate in Arvandor. Heh. But let's see what happens if you throw their spirits into the middle of the Blood War. Yes, that should be nice and messily interesting ...
Ravenloft: Elves are killed or attacked on sight here, in most realms. Like everyone else, the elves of Ravenloft are doomed to a harsh existence, and perhaps a harsher unlife.
Spelljammer: The snotty elves of the Elven Imperial Navy are being whelmed by the scro in the Second Inhuman War.
Eberron: It sounds like the elves hold one major realm in this setting, and other races hold the rest. Guess what happens then, if the other races decide to get rid of said elves ...
The elves are suffering greviously in all these settings, and all but wiped out on Krynn and Athas (Dragonlance and Dark Sun.)
So the elves are *not* doing well, in the majority of settings.
Heaven forfend that writers write elves in some way other than Tolkien did. And here you're contradicting yourself...again. First they're doomed, then they're having a 'lousy time', then you admit that it's just your own interpretation that flies in the face of contradicting and frankly more persuasive facts.
Writers, of course, have the right to write as they choose, and what they choose (except when their editor gets involved, and the publisher, and ... my pardons, writers are *not* free to write as they choose and what they choose ...)
If writers want to write that elves are prospering, that is their right.
What is relevant to this debate (about the viability of elves, really) is how what has been written in countless books adds to the greater picture. And in my opinion, having read many books myself, I would say they paint a general bleak picture for the elven race, in general, and reinforce the bleak larger picture for the elves. (Yes, some writings portray it otherwise ... I only note the general trend in the books I've read.)
But wait, this is just a set up for...
This is a load of hooey. Dozens of posters have repeatedly provided contraevidence to your claims, but you stick to your thesis despite that. And implied in real world history? Really? Now you're claiming that there were elves on Earth? And I'm sorry, but fantasy histories are not necessarily some outgrowth of real history. And, of course, as with most of your posts, you contradict yourself again - DMs have elves that survive...but you, with your self-professed insight into the minds of said DMs, claim that elves are doomed. Again.
To the point: Are you telling me that the power and sweep of history, the epic catalog of events, the set of almost incalcuably complex patterns that shaped events, wars, migrations, nations, and peoples, is somehow not extremely relevant to the elven situation?
Is that what you are saying? That the elves, are above and beyond *history*?
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I am not claiming elves existed on real world Earth. Just where did you get that?
Real world history is a major part of what writers and game designers use as inspiration and source material for extrapolation to fantasy histories. Ask them, and they will tell you this is so.
If the fantasy world does not have a 'history', then what does it have in place of that? Answer that one.
It is unreasonable to assert that the concept of history is irrelevant in a fantasy setting in which - of course - history and historical events play huge roles. Every official setting has a history. Most home settings have a history (DMs do try ...)
Also, yes, I've had DMs who created situations where their elves could not possibly have survived (one million elves live here, and one million there, but have no food source and ... uh ... they do it by magic, but ... uh ... they are limited to ... uh ... they can't be PC clerics, but they can be NPCs, so yes, their clerics feed them ... 5th level clerics can Create Food and Water, for all those elves ... uh ... nevermind.) They are the DMs: if they say the moon is made of green cheese, the moon is made of green cheese!
More seriously, do you expect every DM to be a Historian? They are not, nor should they have to be.
So DMs will create situations where elves exist, and others exist, where they couldn't or shouldn't exist, but this will be obvious to neither the DM or his players. That is no discompliment to anyone, just common sense and the way things are.
So that's right, many home settings have history's gloomy shadow cast over the elves and their survival chances, but this is not apparent to the players or DM.
It is not reasonable to expect perfection from the Game Designers either. It isn't reasonable to expect perfection from Writers. It isn't reasonable to expect perfection from the Historians, even the greatest Historians!
I do think most Historians would tell you that the Large Picture is bleak for elves, as they are portrayed in the 'classic' sense, within the context of the official settings and (if they could somehow do it) home settings as presented, pointing out numerous reasons why this is so ... including some of those I have given.
You need to face a bit of reality here - you've built up their bizarre and unsupported (outside of your campaign) idea that elves are doomed. You started multiple threads, posted long, rambling and often incoherent claims to 'support' that, but in the end the weight of evidence is well stacked against the house of cards you've built. Elves are doomed in your setting, and I'm sure that's very dramatic, tragic and sad...but your campaign isn't any others'. Stop claiming it is.
If you believe that elves are not doomed, that is fine.
If you wish to make a credible point to me that elves are not doomed, the weight of evidence lays on you.
I have presented evidence to support the general notion that 'classic' elves are doomed.
I have shown it from a rules standpoint for 1E and 2E.
I have shown how it exists within most official settings.
I have shown it in graphic example, within the context of my own setting - this is relevant because the elements that exist in my setting, exist in many other settings and affect elves there in a like manner.
I have shown (or at least attempted to show) the 'classic' elven situation as portrayed through the lens of history. It should be obvious that even extrapolated fantasy histories for settings - official and home - reflect real world history in some ways, and in these ways paint a dark picture for the 'classic' elves.
We see that 3E elves face many of the problems I have focused on, they must bear the crushing weight of history, and they must face all the daunting implications of history.
Not in all campaigns, sorry.
I would dearly like to see you show me how 'classic' elves are winners, survivors, can flourish and grow and triumph.
Give me a 'classic' elven race, describe your setting, and let us see if your elves are going to survive, or are doomed.
Do not fall back on the old DM excuse: 'They survive because I say they do.'
Actually *show* me how elves are winners and survivors.
If you think elves are survivors, *prove it.*
Edena_of_Neith
