The problem with Evil races is not what you think

pemerton

Legend
The use of primitive culture has been used from the nineteenth century to the present day to justify colonial appropriations. It is inherently judgmental and used to assert the intellectual superiority of the West (in which technological advancement was associated with the concept of "Civilization"). It treats contemporary people as if they were in the "stone age," and thus relics of a different era, minimizing their knowledges and world views. Until the mid 20th century (at best), the "primitivism" of groups was thought to be biologically determined.
It's that last sentence in particular that I think is important.

As I've tried to set out in a few recent posts in this thread, there are good theoretical frameworks available for thinking about processes of the diffusion of technology. These weren't available to the "scientific" racists - they emerge out of the sociology that is developed/invented in the second half of the nineteenth century and the early part of the twentieth century; which is to say that they emerge during the heyday of "scientific" racism.

Once we have these theories available, we can see that biological explanations are (i) silly and (ii) themselves the expression of the sorts of ideological processes that good sociology explains.

And we can also see that to the extent that FRPGing clings to these sorts of biological explanations - as it clearly does, per the discussions in this thread and especially @Doug McCrae's exegetical work - it is rejecting realism in favour of racist tropes.
 

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The only silly thing here is to argue that all toolkits are equal. They simply are not. A simple (primitive) toolkit for the Amazonas simply far behind the toolkit of developed nation. Just look at for example medicine, including treating diseases prevalent in the Amazonas. Even the "foreign but more advanced" toolkit would be better suited for living in the Amazonas as the one of the natives themselves, simply because it gives you more tools to alter the environment.

The reason why the traditional land management in the Sahel are more suited to the region is because they do not have the tools in their kit to implement all the suggestions. If they had access to equipment like the western world has then their traditional form of land management would be clearly inferior.
No, they are superior BECAUSE THEY HAVE A TECHNOLOGY (knowledge, tools, and procedures) which the supposedly 'more advanced' western 'development experts' didn't have. Nor did they bother to even ask about it, because, like you, they ASSUMED they were 'more advanced' and had nothing to learn from the locals. They learned the hard way through FAILURE that they were wrong!

Same with the Masai, British ranchers kicked them off a lot of the range, now the British have given up ranching because they cannot manage the range effectively, but the Masai are still there, and now they're reclaiming the rest of their land. I saw it, I was there.

What you are displaying here is simply cultural chauvinism and an arrogant lack of appreciation for what you don't understand and automatically assume is inferior. This is largely because of an ideology which was developed in Europe in the 16th through 19th Century in order to justify exploiting other people, colonialism, slavery, etc. It is worth stepping away from and looking at objectively.
No. Iron and especially steel tools and weapons are more advanced than bone and stone weapons, not only because they are more effective but also they require much more knowledge to craft. The same way a laser edged tungsten steel blade would be more advanced than a hand forged steel sword.
The idea that everything is equal is simply not true.
Steel can be a better material. If you had the choice of either or both, that would be nice. However, what is a steel blade going to do in the rainforest? Besides rust? You better bring something with you to sharpen it. See what I mean? Nor are we talking about 'equal', we're talking about more or less primitive. I have said a dozen times that primitive vs advanced and more or less effective are two different measures. It may be that you simply won't get the most effective item in every place. That doesn't mean the local culture is unsophisticated. It simply means that they operate under different constraints.
 

I honestly think far too many people are reading way to much into way too many elements of various fantasy settings.

Also, things like "Since animal comparisons were used to demean ethnicities" is being used to falsely accuse anthropomorphic and/or uplift animals of being racist content about those ethnicities... Overgeneralization. Looking for offense by misattribution of causality. Anthropomorphs in fantasy are usually not stand-ins for some historic group; they're usually there specifically to NOT be some other ethicity.

Just because Tolkien's Orcs are evil and deformed Mongols, that doesn't mean that those in other works, even those which draw heavily from Tolkien, are aware of Tolkien's inspiration/source, let alone share it. Fundamentally, the trope of orcs isn't related to Mongols anymore. It's outgrown the origin. It's become a species, not just a culture, outside of Tolkien's works and the games directly derived from them.
These are the logical continuations of the initial arguing points . If you accept the argument that Orcs have problems, this is the absurdity you open the door to. Then we have the “trope problems” of barbarians as a class (certainly far more problematic from a rw perspective than fantasy creatures as it actually has rw connotations of views of human cultures- yet strangely is never brought up) , sexist tropes of witches and hags, feudalism which defines people’s places in “the natural order” etc. And again, his Orcs are categorically not Mongols. It was a racially loaded physically descriptive simile. I already discussed this in post #53, so please, let’s not have that quote thrown up yet again…

And you’re right, even were the origins the most problematic that ever were, the use in game has outgrown them (the genetic fallacy) I was also talking about.
But alas, given the lengths that some have gone to draw these tenuous connections between an apparently ready well of racist literature, as well as descriptive othering (which has been used as a literary device for fantastical monsters before being applied by racists to different ethnic groups, to dehumanise them and make them seem like fantastical monsters *) you’ll reach the same conclusion I have that it’s akin to shouting in the wind with this dogma. Though take comfort, as I have, in the fact it’s only really a small minority of posters (let alone playing population) that reach this far.

As for POC gamer’s work. Meh. He makes the case against himself in his two part complaint about feeling hard done by. He outlines in part 1 how wotc operates with outside writers, then complains how they do just that. His writing of his initial adventure was so far beyond the scope of what had been asked, and tried to bring in wide reaching lore changes to the forgotten realms with it. You bet that was going to be cut. I believe also the word primitive used in that adventure was only used to refer to the state of the structures in a Grippli faction hideaway camp (having fled from the problems detailed in the adventure) rather than to the grippli themselves (though I’m happy to be corrected on this as I’ve not looked too carefully at the adventure).

*people of colour have not been the sole recipients of this. The Roman view of Celts for example, or the Anglo Saxon view of Viking raiders upon their shores etc. Nor have people of colour been free of using this, Japanese views on Koreans and Chinese prior to WW2 etc. Pretty much all humanity has been awful to one another throughout history. Which is why monsters are great, so specific links to human groups are avoided in classic tales of good vs evil, or, if you want to go the other way, challenging perceptions of what it means to be humans when we see aspects of all of us reflected back to us. They’re flexible like that.
 
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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
I honestly think far too many people are reading way to much into way too many elements of various fantasy settings.

Also, things like "Since animal comparisons were used to demean ethnicities" is being used to falsely accuse anthropomorphic and/or uplift animals of being racist content about those ethnicities... Overgeneralization. Looking for offense by misattribution of causality. Anthropomorphs in fantasy are usually not stand-ins for some historic group; they're usually there specifically to NOT be some other ethicity.

Just because Tolkien's Orcs are evil and deformed Mongols, that doesn't mean that those in other works, even those which draw heavily from Tolkien, are aware of Tolkien's inspiration/source, let alone share it. Fundamentally, the trope of orcs isn't related to Mongols anymore. It's outgrown the origin. It's become a species, not just a culture, outside of Tolkien's works and the games directly derived from them.
Once someone has been made aware that images, terminology, etc. have their origins in bigotry, they can no longer claim clean hands if they continue to use them. By doing so, you give the bigotry a life preserver. Imagine if, for some reason, instead of using RW racist slurs in their descriptions of certain species, game designers lived by the adage “a picture is worth a thousand words“, and used slightly altered images of Mammy, Sambo, Mandingo and The Black Brute in monster stat blocks.

Simply using the negative stereotypes in written form sans actual imagery is no less reprehensible, just easier to spin.

I have done this myself with various slurs that I learned because they were in common usage in my social circles, and I had no idea as to their nature. Once I knew better, I stopped. I excised those phrases and slurs from my speech and writing.

Honestly, it’s not a difficult thing to be so minimally respectful of others.
 
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Doug McCrae

Legend
Also, things like "Since animal comparisons were used to demean ethnicities" is being used to falsely accuse anthropomorphic and/or uplift animals of being racist content about those ethnicities... Overgeneralization. Looking for offense by misattribution of causality. Anthropomorphs in fantasy are usually not stand-ins for some historic group; they're usually there specifically to NOT be some other ethicity.
I should stress that I'm not saying all use of beings with both human and animal features in fiction is racist. The purpose of the quotations from Katie Hopkins et al. in post #245 upthread was to demonstrate that such usage can be racist. It's part of a counter-argument to the potential objection that the use of animal people in fiction can't be racist because they are more like animals than people.

Post #32 upthread summarises my full argument and the posts linked from #32 develop it and provide evidence.
 
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And we can also see that to the extent that FRPGing clings to these sorts of biological explanations - as it clearly does, per the discussions in this thread and especially @Doug McCrae's exegetical work - it is rejecting realism in favour of racist tropes.
Would you settle for "quite a lot of it does?" Because I, and several others who started FRPing early on, found a different kind of setting emerged from the wide variety of sapient species and non-sapient monsters that D&D presents, if you try to rationalise it at all.

It's completely implausible that they all evolved in the same world. That can be tossed out to start with. So there needs to be a different explanation. Those fall into two families:

Creation: somebody deliberately created all these species. The best-developed version of this that I've seen has the primal inhabitants of the world creating species for particular tasks. Dwarves were created to make material things, elves to make art, trolls that can eat anything as garbage disposal units, and so on. Gnomes were a variety of dwarf that tasted nicer to the dragons who made these species; giants were for earthmoving or war and humans and orcs both seem to have been made as fast-breeding species suitable for war, by different factions that had slightly different ideas about ideal soldiers. Obviously, this kind of large idea influences just about everything in the setting, and makes it seem weird to present-day gamers. That's OK, because the chap who created it did so long before TSR published any settings, and was never interested in running those worlds.

Refugees: by some means or other, groups of people have been able to travel between the many, many worlds of the multiverse. The setting of the game is a world where many different groups have arrived. They have influenced each other, of course, but all of them have wanted to maintain their own cultures. This is my preferred method, and it discards the concept of "intrinsically evil races" completely. Different species have different cultures, but they're all workable cultures, which allow for a functioning society. They may seem strange, crude, over-refined, violent, or over-repressive to different species, but they can all work, and adapt to having contact with other societies. I've seen a half-orc paladin played, and yes, he was a genuine paladin, although quite a few of the people he met didn't believe it at first. Again, this approach is completely incompatible with many published settings, and this is just fine with the people who run and play these homebrew settings.
 

Ixal

Hero
I don't need to. I know! The designers drew in pulp tropes, which in turn reflect "scientific" racism. That's the point of (much of) this thread.


There has been. I don't know how much time you've spent in central Africa, but if you go there you will find that people live in houses modelled on European designs, wear clothes that are European or North American in conception, use mobile phones that have been imported, etc. One effect of colonialism has been to generate this sort of rapid diffusion of technologies.

If you are suggesting that there was not diffusion of technology from China to other parts of Eurasia prior to the period of European domination of world affairs, then you are wrong. There obviously was.


Shaka Zulu is one actor in a brief period. The ANC used guns.

PNG has been colonised for around 100 years, and some parts of PNG have had "contact" for less than that. People in PNG wear t-shirts.

There are some Masai who are self-conscious about the maintenance of tradition (of course this is a comportment towards material and other culture that only becomes possible in the context of rapid social change). They use mobile phones.

How long have the Grippli existed in Cormyr? What are the social processes they are participating in? Obviously there is no in-fiction answer to this. But the answer to the question why are they authored in that fashion is straightforward, as I already posted.
That was because through colonization technology was forced upon them.
I was talking about the time before colonialization. There has been contact and in many cases trade between the cultures for centuries, but technological diffusion didn't happen, or only very slowly.
The pulp tropes as you call them happened exactly that way in history as could the difference between Cormyt and Grippli.

Frankly I have no idea why you inject modern situations into the FR with a more or less medieval/renaissance technology base.
 
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aramis erak

Legend
I accept that Orcs as Tolkien envisioned them are an outgrowth of the casual racism of his era. A casual racism his later years made him more aware of, and that he regretted the original correlation. I don't accept that reading about them has changed my worldview in any negative way towards any actual humans

Meanwhile, while I see no point in defending institutional racism, nor in defending past social constructs, but I also don't see deconstructing in a witch-hunt-like manner as a valuable discourse.

Once someone has been made aware that images, terminology, etc. have their origins in bigotry, they can no longer claim clean hands if they continue to use them. By doing so, you give the bigotry a life preserver.
I also flatly reject such absolutist BS.

That kind of thinking gives more power to the original racists than they deserve. It does far more harm to the search for genuine legal and social equality, too: It poisons the moderates against the progressives far more effectively than the far right can. The Far-Right is ugly; so are witch-hunts by either side.
 

Ixal

Hero
No, they are superior BECAUSE THEY HAVE A TECHNOLOGY (knowledge, tools, and procedures) which the supposedly 'more advanced' western 'development experts' didn't have. Nor did they bother to even ask about it, because, like you, they ASSUMED they were 'more advanced' and had nothing to learn from the locals. They learned the hard way through FAILURE that they were wrong!

Same with the Masai, British ranchers kicked them off a lot of the range, now the British have given up ranching because they cannot manage the range effectively, but the Masai are still there, and now they're reclaiming the rest of their land. I saw it, I was there.

What you are displaying here is simply cultural chauvinism and an arrogant lack of appreciation for what you don't understand and automatically assume is inferior. This is largely because of an ideology which was developed in Europe in the 16th through 19th Century in order to justify exploiting other people, colonialism, slavery, etc. It is worth stepping away from and looking at objectively.

Steel can be a better material. If you had the choice of either or both, that would be nice. However, what is a steel blade going to do in the rainforest? Besides rust? You better bring something with you to sharpen it. See what I mean? Nor are we talking about 'equal', we're talking about more or less primitive. I have said a dozen times that primitive vs advanced and more or less effective are two different measures. It may be that you simply won't get the most effective item in every place. That doesn't mean the local culture is unsophisticated. It simply means that they operate under different constraints.
The western world had this knowledge in the past, but ditched it for something more effective.
But when you really think a steel blade is useless in the rainforest because it would rust away then I do not think that there is any point in discussing with you any further as you are dead set in your "everything is equal" thinking and are not willing to hear any counter arguments.
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
Grippli first appear in the AD&D 1e Monster Manual II (1983). The word "primitive" is not used in the entry.

They defend themselves with snares, nets, poisoned darts and bolts, and occasionally a sword or dagger.

A grippli lair is built on the ground and consists of mud and wood huts.​

The entry in the AD&D 2e Monstrous Manual (1993) states that they "have a primitive culture."

I think one (but not the only) problem here is as others such as @Monadology and @pemerton have said. The word "primitive" is not being applied to one particular technology but to an entire culture.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
I also flatly reject such absolutist BS.

That kind of thinking gives more power to the original racists than they deserve. It does far more harm to the search for genuine legal and social equality, too: It poisons the moderates against the progressives far more effectively than the far right can. The Far-Right is ugly; so are witch-hunts by either side.
Enlighten me then: how does one use the language of bigotry without perpetuating bigotry?

People in my subculture have been trying to “reclaim“ a certain word for decades now, and even among us, that word remains extremely controversial and divisive. Complicating matters, people outside our subgroup continue to ask if & when they can use it, some genuinely baffled, others sea lioning or reveling in linguistic judo dog whistles.

Letting it die, remaining preserved in original texts and in scholarly discussion thereof seems to me the better option.

Why borrow trouble when you can find different, non-inflammatory language? Is it because of a lack of vocabulary?
 
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I don't think I used the notion of a gradient. I did talk about differences. You own use of the verb to achieve shows that there are some challenges in locutions here.

That said, Australia has no manufacturing capacity for mobile phones, nor any more for cars, yet both are pretty ubiquitous. The previous sentence is also true if "Kenya" is substituted for "Australia", except that Kenya has never had a manufacturing capacity for cars.

Notions of core and periphery can be useful for trying to get a handle on patterns of wealth and trade, some dynamics of diffusion, etc. (Such notions are also going to have to be tentative, given that the periphery (eg Mongolia, or Britain) can feed back into the core in surprising and dramatic ways.) It seems that any "realistic" treatment of the Grippli vis-a-vis Cormyr would have to accept that they are going to be on the periphery, in the same sort of way that (in Europe) Albania has been peripheral in a way that Austria has not been, or (in the US) South Dakota is peripheral in a way that California is not. We might except Grippli manufacturing capacity and trading significance to be less than found in the core of Cormyr. But we wouldn't expect "primitiveness" in the sense of - say - a resolute determination to not use those metal knives or axes that are available. Or as far as the waterproofing of houses is concerned, we wouldn't expect any significant difference in performance between the houses built by Grippli and the houses built in the nearest Cormyrean villages. Whereas we would probably expect fewer opera houses or grand cathedrals among the Grippli than in the Cormyrean capital.
Right, so maybe overall we can use notions of trade and capital formation to explain/model the uneven distribution of 'means of production' in a geographic and cultural sense. I think this is an approach which has been used quite a bit in terms of trying to understand the reasons for greater productive capacity and the accumulation of technology in certain parts of the world. It can then be used to ask questions, like "Why has Sub-Saharan Africa not developed an industrialized civilization?" (at least prior to European colonialism). Trade seems to be one factor, certainly Europe, South Asia, and East Asia seem to have developed a large-scale trading system. Africa participated to an extent, but not so much, and was geographically more distant from the main trade routes. Geography (lack of harbors and navigable rivers) has also been sited. The whole idea of technological appropriateness, Europe and China have similar climates and geographic features, allowing their innovations to be more easily exchanged (IE domesticated animals, crops, architecture, etc.). Nobody can really say for certain which factors are the most significant.

However it is hard to invoke overall cultural or biological factors. We can't find biological factors, they don't seem to exist (they cannot actually be 100% ruled out, but their magnitude must be small). Cultural factors seem not too relevant, as various polities of sophistication on the same order as those in Eurasia have existed in Sub-Saharan Africa for millennia. Not only that, but there's no sign of some sort of cultural stasis there which would make some particular social/cultural institution so prevalent over all of history as to rule out progress. If we examine the detailed history of various regions of Africa, politics and society seem pretty similar in their basic structure to other areas. The most significant factor SEEMS to be that there was little incentive for exchange of ideas with Eurasia and capital moved to the areas with easier access to technology, eventually creating a disparity in means.
I don't think notions of "primitive" or "advanced" are terribly useful. But notions of causal dependence can be useful. You gave an example: smelting iron is causally dependent on access to certain resources. Perhaps a bit more intricately, having access to vast quantities of steel is dependent on having railways to cart ore and coal, which are in term dependent on having access to vast quantities of steel - this is (one example of) the self-sustaining causal process of industrialisation that can emerge only under pretty distinct conditions.
Right, I mean, science fiction has basically identified this process with ideas of a 'singularity' etc. That is basically the notion that there is a NON-LINEAR effect in which employment of capital in an area leads to greater effectiveness of more employment of capital in that area. One instrumentality piles on another. This also explains the current divide between the North/West and the South. It is vastly easier to invest $'s in the US markets and make a good return than to attempt to do so in somewhere in Africa or Latin America, generally. One would thus expect that diffusion will, at this point, probably never produce a homogeneous result, not unless the 'First World' runs into fundamental limits which change this effect. I'd note that we may well be seeing signs of that, but since the ramifications are global, it seems this alone will not do the trick. Perhaps if we get off our high horses and look at what other cultures actually have to offer in terms of social organization and ecological knowledge, that might help. I'm not sanguine.
Which relates to your remarks about a "novel set of tools". This is, at its core, the rationalisation/technicalisation thesis found in (eg) Weber and Hodgson. In one sense, this social form is very durable - once it emerges, it appears that it absorbs/destroys all others that it comes into contact with. (One version of this idea is Weber's "iron cage"; another is Marx's idea of the power of liberal capitalism to dissolve all other relations of production.) In another sense, though, there is no reason to think it is can last - Weber flagged as the limit the consumption of fossil fuels; it seems more likely now that the limit is the consumption of atmospheric capacity. In this way it is different from hunter-gatherer or pastoralist technologies which have shown themselves to be very durable on their own terms (I use that last qualification because they have also shown themselves highly liable to destruction/absoprtion by industrial modernity - see the opening sentences of this paragraph).
In all fairness, h-g, pastoralist, and traditional agriculture have not necessarily produced sustainable results either. I cited 2 examples where local knowledge proved to be superior, but even that knowledge cannot guarantee long-term sustainability. Every system is vulnerable to certain kinds of weaknesses, has blind spots, runs into things beyond its control. I mean hunter-gatherer people once roamed a fertile northern Africa, but nothing they could have done would have prevent the Sahara from forming (largely a consequence of orbital dynamics). Nor were they probably keeping records detailed enough to even discern the problem's existence.
 

I don't think this is true. Or at least I doubt that you have any evidence for its truth.

I say the above because I remember a conversation I had a couple of years ago with a professor of agricultural science, who was talking about research he had done in Benin. This showed that the adoption of techniques recommended by the FAO supposedly to increase production were actually, over the medium-to-long term, reducing production because those techniques - by changing land and plant forms - were destabilising micro-climates that had generated necessary rainfall.

My guess is that my previous paragraph would be an example of the sort of thing @AbdulAlhazred had in mind in his post.
Right, you can reference for example talk about 'building a green wall'. This notion isn't crazy, but the techniques attempted proved to be vastly inferior to, and even undermined, those of the local farmers, who were already well aware of how to mitigate desertification. I believe that there is at least some talk/research/action taking place to adopt some of those practices, and a greater understanding that local technology is actually pretty sophisticated in this regard.
 

The western world had this knowledge in the past, but ditched it for something more effective.
But when you really think a steel blade is useless in the rainforest because it would rust away then I do not think that there is any point in discussing with you any further as you are dead set in your "everything is equal" thinking and are not willing to hear any counter arguments.
It is not that I think the steel blade is 'useless in the rain forest'. It is probably more useful than the ones made from local materials, up to a point. Again, what I am saying is that effectiveness and sophistication aren't the same thing. It takes at least as much skill, and probably a good bit of social organization, to create a stone tool crafting culture on a par with those seen today in remote areas, or in the late paleolithic. Look at the fine craftsmanship. Surely it took years, maybe decades, of instruction and practice to achieve. It also required long-distance trade for good raw materials in at least some cases. Is that 'more primitive' than building a blast furnance, etc.? I think it produces a somewhat less effective product, but there are, as discussed in later posts to yours between @pemerton and myself, some fairly good explanations for why capital formation and production has occurred in some areas and not others.

This ties back to my point about biological evolution. In terms of culture/society, every one of them has evolved through the same time frame. it isn't clear to me why we would assume that one made 'more progress' than another, and is thus 'more advanced'.

Nor do I think the western world has simply 'discarded' certain ideas. I mean, maybe they have discarded some, but a Medieval European farmer wouldn't have solved the Sahel's problems either. It relied on knowing how to use certain specific tree species and where, when, and how to plant them. This is clearly locally determined knowledge. It was ignored simply because westerners held local knowledge in contempt. It is just as silly to imagine modern hunter-gatherers coming to England and telling the people there how to knap flint and ignoring their ability to smelt iron and make steel.
 

pemerton

Legend
That was because through colonization technology was forced upon them.
I was talking about the time before colonialization. There has been contact and in many cases trade between the cultures for centuries, but technological diffusion didn't happen, or only very slowly.
The pulp tropes as you call them happened exactly that way in history as could the difference between Cormyt and Grippli.

Frankly I have no idea why you inject modern situations into the FR with a more or less medieval/renaissance technology base.
Technological diffusion prior to modernity tends to happen at a sufficiently slow rate that (at least typically) new technologies are able to be incorporated without immediate social disruption.

Of course there may be tremendous social change - the process of incorporation of the stirrup and resultant mounted warfare in agragrian Europe took hundreds of years and saw the emergence of the feudal social order.

How long have Grippli lived in contact with Cormyr? What processes of diffusion are taking place? I am extremely confident that the canon materials provide no answer to this second question, and rather that they simply stipulate the "primitiveness" of Grippli. (As per @Doug McCrae's post #310.)
 
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Ixal

Hero
Technological diffusion prior to modernity tends to happen at a sufficiently slow rate that (at least typically) new technologies are able to be incorporated without immediate social disruption.

Of course there may be tremendous social change - the process of incorporation of the stirrup and resultant mounted warfare in agragrian Europe took hundreds of years and saw the emergence of the feudal social order.

How long have Grippli lived in contact with Cormyr? What processes of diffusion are taking place? I am extremely confident that the canon materials provide no answer to this second question, and rather that they simply stipulate the "primitiveness" of Grippli. (As per @Doug McCrae's post #310.)
Why is that important to the current situation that the technology level of the Grippli being primitive compared to the place the adventurers come from?
You now seem to be grasping straws because you do not want this situation to be plausible, even though there are ample examples in history where similar situations happened. An in D&D/FR progress is extremly slow for everyone anyway. In the current situation in the adventure the technology the Grippli use is primitive compared to the PCs, its as simple as that. This is a description of the current situation and has nothing to do with racism.

It is not that I think the steel blade is 'useless in the rain forest'. It is probably more useful than the ones made from local materials, up to a point. Again, what I am saying is that effectiveness and sophistication aren't the same thing. It takes at least as much skill, and probably a good bit of social organization, to create a stone tool crafting culture on a par with those seen today in remote areas, or in the late paleolithic. Look at the fine craftsmanship. Surely it took years, maybe decades, of instruction and practice to achieve. It also required long-distance trade for good raw materials in at least some cases. Is that 'more primitive' than building a blast furnance, etc.? I think it produces a somewhat less effective product, but there are, as discussed in later posts to yours between @pemerton and myself, some fairly good explanations for why capital formation and production has occurred in some areas and not others.

This ties back to my point about biological evolution. In terms of culture/society, every one of them has evolved through the same time frame. it isn't clear to me why we would assume that one made 'more progress' than another, and is thus 'more advanced'.

Nor do I think the western world has simply 'discarded' certain ideas. I mean, maybe they have discarded some, but a Medieval European farmer wouldn't have solved the Sahel's problems either. It relied on knowing how to use certain specific tree species and where, when, and how to plant them. This is clearly locally determined knowledge. It was ignored simply because westerners held local knowledge in contempt. It is just as silly to imagine modern hunter-gatherers coming to England and telling the people there how to knap flint and ignoring their ability to smelt iron and make steel.

Do you even know what kind of knowledge and resources are required to make a blast furnance? Yes, making a stone tool, even a really well made one, is primitive compared to that.

And your idea of capital is a modern concept which has no use in this example as there was no market economy where "money is king". Besides, Africa was very wealthy thanks to the slave trade and gold mines so the basis of your theory is wrong to begin with.
 
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pemerton

Legend
Why is that important to the current situation that the technology level of the Grippli being primitive compared to the place the adventurers come from?
You now seem to be grasping straws because you do not want this situation to be plausible, even though there are ample examples in history where similar situations happened.
What historical examples are you referring to?

What can you tell us about (say) the technological differences between western Ireland and Kent 800 years ago? And is the social and geographic relationship between Cormyr and the Grippli comparable to that between mediaeval England and mediaeval Ireland?
 

Ixal

Hero
What historical examples are you referring to?

What can you tell us about (say) the technological differences between western Ireland and Kent 800 years ago? And is the social and geographic relationship between Cormyr and the Grippli comparable to that between mediaeval England and mediaeval Ireland?
I have mentioned the Zulu before. Guns are not the only thing they did not adopt from Europeans. And this is just one example in Africa. Generally the technology from Europe did not spread there all that fast, or at all the further you go inland, despite centuries of contact with the islamic community and later European traders.

North American tribes also did not adopt much technology from the Central American empires despite long contacts and later from Europeans with some exceptions like guns and horses. But for example smelting got reintroduced very late (19th century).
 

Ask that to the designers of the FR.
Also, why has there not been a diffusion of technology from Europe, through Costal Africa, to Central/Interior Africa? Or from Europe to the Natives in North America? Or China/Japan to South East Asia? That technology is not adopted is hardly unheard of. A concrete example would be that Shaka Zulu refused to buy guns when it was offered to him as he thought short spears (impi) and shields are superior.
You are talking about not an instance, but one singular individual who argued against the adoption of firearms, and not because they wanted to stay "primitive," but because they would have to entirely change their tactics. By the mid-late 20th century, firearms were much more common among the Zulu and the Zulu were very much interested in defending themselves against Boer settler incursions. This example is still instructive, however, as the firearms that were traded to the Zulu (in exchange for mining labor) were obsolete and difficult to maintain compared to the firearms their colonizing opponents were using. So you are correct, there was a difference in technology which granted the Boers and the British an advantage, at least in their task of efficient killing.

But what was the historical context of this technological difference? As the above indicates, the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries in South Africa were periods of rapacious and genocidal settler colonialism and appropriation, especially after the discovery of diamond deposits. It was also, not coincidentally, when the notion that Africans were more "primitive," and in fact, incapable by themselves of "advancement" along European lines was taken as common sense (that was taken as a universal goal of "civilization"). The conception of the Civilized/Advanced and the Savage/Primitive suffused all of these interactions with the Zulu. Versions of these concepts were developed and advanced by leading scientists of the day, and they were ubiquitous in European and American popular culture (including, in many cases, the pulp fiction that inspired dnd (see Haggard and others)). "Primitive" was the logic of "In Darkest Africa," and gave rise to the notion that "Civilizing" Africa was a European duty and birthright.

Famously, Joseph Chamberlain:

You cannot have omelettes without breaking eggs; you cannot destroy the practices of barbarism, of slavery, of superstition, which for centuries have desolated the interior of Africa, without the use of force; but if you will fairly contrast the gain to humanity with the price which we are bound to pay for it, I think you may well rejoice in the result of such expeditions as those which have recently been conducted with such signal success—(cheers)—in Nyassaland, Ashanti, Benin, and Nupe—expeditions which may have, and indeed have, cost valuable lives, but as to which we may rest assured that for one life lost a hundred will be gained, and the cause of civilisation and the prosperity of the people will in the long run be eminently advanced. (Cheers.)

The level of violence (between European colonizers as well) is what led to the creation of the modern concentration camp, as a type of wartime space and technology. South Africa, as is well known, retained the racial categories of the nineteenth century into most of the twentieth through the totalitarian and oppressive system of Apartheid.

I appreciate that you'd like to filter out all of this history in order to retain use of a word in your fantasy wargame (even though it is ironic that you choose perhaps the least felicitous historical example for this purpose). And that, you don't care if all of that history, encoded as always in language, matters to a POC writer and POC readers, because you want to defend an established white editor who works for a large corporation in inserting that word without asking the writer or considering its implications (and in a product attempting to highlight the company's willingness to hire a diverse set of writers). In fact, not only do you not care, you seem offended that anyone else would care, thus your comments in this thread.
 

Ixal

Hero
You are talking about not an instance, but one singular individual who argued against the adoption of firearms, and not because they wanted to stay "primitive," but because they would have to entirely change their tactics. By the mid-late 20th century, firearms were much more common among the Zulu and the Zulu were very much interested in defending themselves against Boer settler incursions. This example is still instructive, however, as the firearms that were traded to the Zulu (in exchange for mining labor) were obsolete and difficult to maintain compared to the firearms their colonizing opponents were using. So you are correct, there was a difference in technology which granted the Boers and the British an advantage, at least in their task of efficient killing.

But what was the historical context of this technological difference? As the above indicates, the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries in South Africa were periods of rapacious and genocidal settler colonialism and appropriation, especially after the discovery of diamond deposits. It was also, not coincidentally, when the notion that Africans were more "primitive," and in fact, incapable by themselves of "advancement" along European lines was taken as common sense (that was taken as a universal goal of "civilization"). The conception of the Civilized/Advanced and the Savage/Primitive suffused all of these interactions with the Zulu. Versions of these concepts were developed and advanced by leading scientists of the day, and they were ubiquitous in European and American popular culture (including, in many cases, the pulp fiction that inspired dnd (see Haggard and others)). "Primitive" was the logic of "In Darkest Africa," and gave rise to the notion that "Civilizing" Africa was a European duty and birthright.

Famously, Joseph Chamberlain:



The level of violence (between European colonizers as well) is what led to the creation of the modern concentration camp, as a type of wartime space and technology. South Africa, as is well known, retained the racial categories of the nineteenth century into most of the twentieth through the totalitarian and oppressive system of Apartheid.

I appreciate that you'd like to filter out all of this history in order to retain use of a word in your fantasy wargame (even though it is ironic that you choose perhaps the least felicitous historical example for this purpose). And that, you don't care if all of that history, encoded as always in language, matters to a POC writer and POC readers, because you want to defend an established white editor who works for a large corporation in inserting that word without asking the writer or considering its implications (and in a product attempting to highlight the company's willingness to hire a diverse set of writers). In fact, not only do you not care, you seem offended that anyone else would care, thus your comments in this thread.
You forget that in monarchies the word of one man shapes nations. Napoleon could not wrap his head around the concept of steam driven ships which destroyed any chance of breaking British naval superiority. And Shaka Zulu rejected guns, resulting in the military stagnation of the Zulu and ensured that no effort was spend in acquiring or even manufacturing their own guns which resulted in them having very few and inferior guns in the Anglo-Zulu war. (Don't forget that the Zulu existed for way longer than when Shaka lived. Plenty of time to adopt some technology from Europeans and Arabs).

Was this difference used as pretext to justify colonialization? Yes. But that difference existed and was no invention by the Europeans. There were numerous instances where people with a vast difference in technology met and also many instances where technological diffusion was very slow or not existing for various reasons, the same way there were instances of rapid adoption of technology.

And being offended lies squarely with those people who complain that, in order to better describe a situation where there is a huge technological gap between two groups, the word primitive which fits perfectly to the actual situation. That you bring race into it also makes me wonder how objective you are.

By the way, when talking about editors, you know that they often do much larger changes without asking, right? Right here on Enworld a editor changed a "Worlds of Design" articles headline and intro so much that it had a completely different meaning and was very confusing to read without informing the author at all.
 

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