The problem with Evil races is not what you think

[Ixal]

Fair enough. But, paleothic or neolithic humans had limited access to newer technologies. After all, those cave paintings were the cutting edge of art of the time.

But, you've still failed to explain how a group of people, who trade with the greatest repository of knowledge in the land, and who live less than a day from a major city (by boat), lack tools or technologies. Sure, I can understand some remote island culture who have never made contact with other people might lack technologies, or a group of people surrounded by a honking big impassable desert might not have access. But, can you explain why a group of people who have regular contact, to the point where when they stop delivering fish, it's actually something of a problem for Candlekeep, and have traded for years, lack advancements.

Bonus points if you can explain why it is ONLY tribal peoples in the game that are "primitive".

For the same reasons all the real world cultures (mostly tribals, go figue. Might have something to do with other government forms requires a higher level or organisation and infrastructure...) did not adapt the technologies of their neighbours...
Pick one you like.

But we are talking in circles now.

 

[Hussar]

For the same reasons all the real world cultures (mostly tribals, go figue. Might have something to do with other government forms requires a higher level or organisation and infrastructure...) did not adapt the technologies of their neighbours...
Pick one you like.

But we are talking in circles now.

That's a non-answer. Cultures that were less technologically advanced than other cultures quickly catch up after contact is made between the cultures. So, again, can you please explain why a group of people living less than a day from a major metropolitan city like Baldur's Gate are "primitive"? Can you give me an example from the real world where a group of people living within 50 miles of a major urban city remained primitive?

 

[Hussar]

It's about like all the people nowadays who think that these ancient statues, monuments, and architecture in the ancient world (e.g., Greece, Rome, Egypt, Mesopotamia, etc.) were as colorless and undecorated as the way we found them.

Heh, I've seen the pictures of Roman art with the color restored. I know I'm not supposed to say this, but, man, they are ugly. It's just weird looking to see those beautiful alibaster busts and whatnot with really, really strong colors all over them.

 

[Ixal]

That's a non-answer. Cultures that were less technologically advanced than other cultures quickly catch up after contact is made between the cultures. So, again, can you please explain why a group of people living less than a day from a major metropolitan city like Baldur's Gate are "primitive"? Can you give me an example from the real world where a group of people living within 50 miles of a major urban city remained primitive?

No, they often did not.
North American tribes did not pick up much both from Central American kingdoms and from European settlers. As did central African societies from the Islam and Christian influenced coastal regions. Chinese technology also did not spread all that far into SE Asia.
China and Japan also had uprisings when adopting European ideas.

And then there are also people like the Amish.

 

[Hussar]

No, they often did not.
North American tribes did not pick up much both from Central American kingdoms and from European settlers. As did central African societies from the Islam and Christian influenced coastal regions. Chinese technology also did not spread all that far into SE Asia.
China and Japan also had uprisings when adopting European ideas.

And then there are also people like the Amish.

What are you talking about?

North American First Nations peoples adopted horses, metal tools, housing, and within a century, the vast majority of native peoples in North America (at least the ones that weren't wiped out) lived in relatively equal footing with European settlers. Central America kingdoms? Holy crap, how far do you think pre-horse peoples traveled? I mean, I know they found Meso-American trade goods in Canada.

Now, Chinese technology? Are you kidding me? That spread everywhere. The Japanese and Koreans both had all sorts of technologies from the Chinese. Art, entire writing system, tea, medicine, never minding entire philosophies like Confucianism. I've BEEN to the temples in Thailand and Japan and Viet Nam. How much more technology would you like them to borrow? Good grief, there were Chinese trade missions in Viet Nam in the 5th century onwards. Malasia has had Chinese influences since about the 5th century. Sri Lanka as well. Where in South East Asia are you referring to?

No one said that adopting new technologies is simple. It's not. But, this is a really, really narrow interpretation of history.

Oh, and tell me again how the Amish are "primitive"? You mean, they don't know about electricity? They have no concept of higher technology? I mean, good grief, I grew up in Mennonite country. Walk into a Mennonite dairy barn sometime and tell me how "primitive" they are. The Amish CHOOSE not to use technology. They are in no way primitive.

And, STILL you are avoiding answering the question. How do a people who live within a day's boat ride of a major technological center that they trade with on a regular basis and have done so for generations, remain "primitive"?

 

[Ixal]

What are you talking about?

North American First Nations peoples adopted horses, metal tools, housing, and within a century, the vast majority of native peoples in North America (at least the ones that weren't wiped out) lived in relatively equal footing with European settlers. Central America kingdoms? Holy crap, how far do you think pre-horse peoples traveled? I mean, I know they found Meso-American trade goods in Canada.

Now, Chinese technology? Are you kidding me? That spread everywhere. The Japanese and Koreans both had all sorts of technologies from the Chinese. Art, entire writing system, tea, medicine, never minding entire philosophies like Confucianism. I've BEEN to the temples in Thailand and Japan and Viet Nam. How much more technology would you like them to borrow? Good grief, there were Chinese trade missions in Viet Nam in the 5th century onwards. Malasia has had Chinese influences since about the 5th century. Sri Lanka as well. Where in South East Asia are you referring to?

No one said that adopting new technologies is simple. It's not. But, this is a really, really narrow interpretation of history.

Oh, and tell me again how the Amish are "primitive"? You mean, they don't know about electricity? They have no concept of higher technology? I mean, good grief, I grew up in Mennonite country. Walk into a Mennonite dairy barn sometime and tell me how "primitive" they are. The Amish CHOOSE not to use technology. They are in no way primitive.

And, STILL you are avoiding answering the question. How do a people who live within a day's boat ride of a major technological center that they trade with on a regular basis and have done so for generations, remain "primitive"?

Sigh Do I really have to explain everything?

North American tribes used iron tools and weapon when given to them, but they did not adopt smithing/smelting for centuries (even though they had this knowledge in the past and lost it).
And yes, Central America (Inca, Mayan). Some North American tribes traded with them, so there is no reason why technology would not spread, similar to the silk road (which includes things like writing).
And how much Chinese technology spread to, for example, the Philippines? Or much of the spice islands?

The Amish know about modern technology, but they choose not to use them which can also be a reason why technology is not adopted. And for a non Amish their farming and transportation technology is indeed primitive.

So here are several examples of technology not spreading from history. From not realizing how useful it is (Zulu with guns), to cultural aversion against foreign influence (China after the Opiuim wars), to their way of life not allowing to utilize some technology (nomadic societies can't mine for metals effectively, making smelting hard to impossible) or a concious choice not to use technology for religious or other reasons (Amish) or not adopting technology because trading for the few things they need is easier (North America and Africa).
Pick any one reason for the Grippli you like.

 

[pemerton]

you've still failed to explain how a group of people, who trade with the greatest repository of knowledge in the land, and who live less than a day from a major city (by boat), lack tools or technologies.

Thanks for pressing this point. I'd asked about it upthread but didn't know enough about the FR material to follow through on my suspicions about what the imagined set-up is.

 

[Hussar]

Sigh Do I really have to explain everything?

Yes, you do.

North American tribes used iron tools and weapon when given to them, but they did not adopt smithing/smelting for centuries (even though they had this knowledge in the past and lost it).
And yes, Central America (Inca, Mayan). Some North American tribes traded with them, so there is no reason why technology would not spread, similar to the silk road (which includes things like writing).

Unfortunately, your example doesn't really work here. North American tribes didn't live fifty miles from the Inca empire. Those people that DID live 50 miles from the Inca empire were not particularly technolgically different.

And how much Chinese technology spread to, for example, the Philippines? Or much of the spice islands?

TONS. Good grief. And, note, the Phillipines are hardly FIFTY MILES from China.

The Amish know about modern technology, but they choose not to use them which can also be a reason why technology is not adopted. And for a non Amish their farming and transportation technology is indeed primitive.

So, now our Grippli are primitive because of religious reasons? That's certainly a novel interpretation.

So here are several examples of technology not spreading from history. From not realizing how useful it is (Zulu with guns), to cultural aversion against foreign influence (China after the Opiuim wars), to their way of life not allowing to utilize some technology (nomadic societies can't mine for metals effectively, making smelting hard to impossible) or a concious choice not to use technology for religious or other reasons (Amish) or not adopting technology because trading for the few things they need is easier (North America and Africa).
Pick any one reason for the Grippli you like.

Absolutely NONE of the reasons you list apply to the Grippli who live FIFTY MILES from a major technological center.

Want to actually answer the question?

 

[Ixal]

Want to actually answer the question?

I have, you just keep childishly screaming "THAT DOESN'T COUNT, WHAAAA!!!!" while also conveniently not mentioning my "way of life does not allow for this technology" answer.

 

[Hussar]

I have, you just keep childishly screaming "THAT DOESN'T COUNT, WHAAAA!!!!" while also conveniently not mentioning my "way of life does not allow for this technology" answer.

Well, it's rather hard to take you seriously when you point the the Phillipines and claim there is no influence from China. China traded heavily with the Phillipines for centuries. Even a cursory knowledge of history would know this.

What "way of life" does not allow the Grippli a given technology? Or, rather, what about Grippli, living within easy travel distance and trading for many, many years with Candlekeep, would you say would prevent them from having technology equivalent to any other fishing village? Ok, sure, I wouldn't expect this particular group to be expert miners, for example. But, again, I wouldn't expect any fishing community to be expert miners.

But, now, lacking a given technology does not make you "primitive". To be primitive means you don't have the ability to even understand that technology. A neolithic hunter gatherer could not even begin to understand what a computer is or how it works. It's just too far removed. An Amish person knows exactly what a computer is, and even roughly how it works, even if he or she couldn't operate it. Which, frankly, isn't too far off a lot of non-Amish people.

But, we're specifically talking about Grippli here as presented in the module. They have steel. The docks are described as being build with lumber planks. They have a HINGED breakwater. Their trading post is freaking dressed stone! The Pond Mother's home is made of mud-brick. That's NOT primitive at all. Note, there are metal and glassware listed as traded items in the house descriptions. So, your entire argument about "not allowing technology" doesn't actually hold much water.

Finally, I'd point out that disagreeing with you is hardly "childish screaming". It does not help your point if you're going to start making this personal. I would ask, politely, if you would refrain from doing so in the future.