D&D 5E The Problem With Gish 2.0

[Fanaelialae]

I belive you are wrong, they are clear, and the wizard is limted by his slots, and the slots of the multi class table trump the wizard table...

so one of your two statements is false at least, it is either not clear, or I am not wrong... if you think A is correct and I think B is correct it can not be clear because we both read the same thing differently... I play in 2 regular groups (with a bit of overlap) so I am regularly in contact with 7 people who play, 6 of them own PHBs... (plus me so 8 total 7 own PHBs when you add me) we all read it the same way... One of those regulars works at my FLGS (and comic book shop) and he has had this discussion before, with others at the store... I am yet to hear anyone claim it is BOTH clear and that EVERYONE I KNOW IS READING THE CLEAR STATEMENT WRONG, although to be fear were we think it is clear and we are correct, some people do think it is badly worded and we are reading it wrong...

My apologies, I accept that it's not clear to you and your group. I just don't understand why, because it seems quite clear to me.

Did you look at the text I cited on PHB pg 164? It specifically uses a multiclass wizard as the example. He is a Ranger 4/Wizard 3, meaning he is a 5th level caster (and has 3rd level spell slots). However, it specifically explains that he only has access to the spells that would be available to a 3rd level wizard, rather than a 5th level wizard.

This is perfectly in line with the multiclass spellcasting rule, "You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single classed member of that class". A 3rd level wizard can normally only cast 2nd level spells, so it follows that a multiclassed 3rd level wizard would only be able to prepare up to 2nd level spells, even if he has access to higher spell slots.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

My apologies, I accept that it's not clear to you and your group. I just don't understand why, because it seems quite clear to me.

Did you look at the text I cited on PHB pg 164? It specifically uses a multiclass wizard as the example. He is a Ranger 4/Wizard 3, meaning he is a 5th level caster (and has 3rd level spell slots). However, it specifically explains that he only has access to the spells that would be available to a 3rd level wizard, rather than a 5th level wizard.

This is perfectly in line with the multiclass spellcasting rule, "You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single classed member of that class". A 3rd level wizard can normally only cast 2nd level spells, so it follows that a multiclassed 3rd level wizard would only be able to prepare up to 2nd level spells, even if he has access to higher spell slots.

the problem with that is a single class level 3 wizard only has 2nd level slots, and ranger 4/paladin 2 has 2nd level slots, a fighter (eldritch knight) 12 has second level slots.... since the wizard class references slots, it muddies the water at least if not out right tips it to "You base it on your slots." the example does not follow the rule at all... because you replace the 2 3 4 or 6 class progression charts with the new multi class chart... then it is different.

I'm not sure what you are not understanding... wizard level 2 says "Check slots, you can learn 2 new spells up to that level and add to book" multi class says "You have X level slots based on combined level"

 

[Fanaelialae]

the problem with that is a single class level 3 wizard only has 2nd level slots, and ranger 4/paladin 2 has 2nd level slots, a fighter (eldritch knight) 12 has second level slots.... since the wizard class references slots, it muddies the water at least if not out right tips it to "You base it on your slots." the example does not follow the rule at all... because you replace the 2 3 4 or 6 class progression charts with the new multi class chart... then it is different.

I'm not sure what you are not understanding... wizard level 2 says "Check slots, you can learn 2 new spells up to that level and add to book" multi class says "You have X level slots based on combined level"

I believe I see now.

Remember that per PHB pg 7, a specific rule beats a general rule. The specific rules which apply to a multiclass wizard override the more general rules of the wizard class. (A multiclass wizard is a more specific instance of wizard.) The example from the multiclass section indicates this as well.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I believe I see now.

Remember that per PHB pg 7, a specific rule beats a general rule. The specific rules which apply to a multiclass wizard override the more general rules of the wizard class. (A multiclass wizard is a more specific instance of wizard.) The example from the multiclass section indicates this as well.

yes, so a multi class wizard (specific) has higher slots then a single class wizard (general) and the specific (Higher slot) rule wins out and they can learn the higher spell...

can you at least see even if you don't agree that the rule is in need of clarification it is currently very muddy, because making a good faith effort I could almost read it either way... but it feels odd your way.

 

[Fanaelialae]

yes, so a multi class wizard (specific) has higher slots then a single class wizard (general) and the specific (Higher slot) rule wins out and they can learn the higher spell...

can you at least see even if you don't agree that the rule is in need of clarification it is currently very muddy, because making a good faith effort I could almost read it either way... but it feels odd your way.

I can accept that it needs clarification, but I don't see it at all.

To me, the multiclass rules appear quite clear on the matter. They actually have an example using a wizard. A wizard who, if your interpretation was correct, should be able to have 3rd level spells. And yet the example specifically states that he only has 2nd level spells, as appropriate for a 3rd level wizard. They gave an example using a wizard. I genuinely don't see how they could have been clearer.

Agree to disagree I suppose.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Even if the multiclass wizard could write spells in his book of higher level than his wizard level suggests, at least its clear, thathe can only prepare spells of his actual wizard level by the rules.

And is that so bad? The ritual caster feat allows you to cast spells as rituals which are half level rounded up, if I remember correctly. So the wizard spellbook feature allows exactly this: writing those spells in your book, which you can only cast as rituals until you reach a wizard level that allows you to actually prepare those spells.

 

[redrick]

The Eldritch Knight in our campaign has been a very effective character. A very common interpretation of the RAW is that a character can "lean" a weapon in order to free up a single hand for spell-casting. I think even Mearls or Crawford has indicated this via tweet. If the DM is not allowing that, longsword with a free hand and "duelist" is a perfectly legitimate approach that can still do a ton of damage, and leaves that free hand open for other uses as well.

For our EK, the signature move is definitely the Shield spell. He can step into a choke point, swing away with his sword, and the first time somebody punches through his plate (AC 19 with defensive style), he throws up Shield, which means that he has AC 24 for the rest of the round. That's a pretty nice trick for crowd control. He can also cast burning hands or thunderwave if he needs to knock a bunch of foes down at once, though these days he saves most of the spell slots for shield and let's his greatsword do the damage.

Sure, the EK is more fighter than mage, so I'm not sure if that covers the "archetype" that you're looking for, but it's certainly an effective character.

 

[Zardnaar]

The Eldritch Knight in our campaign has been a very effective character. A very common interpretation of the RAW is that a character can "lean" a weapon in order to free up a single hand for spell-casting. I think even Mearls or Crawford has indicated this via tweet. If the DM is not allowing that, longsword with a free hand and "duelist" is a perfectly legitimate approach that can still do a ton of damage, and leaves that free hand open for other uses as well.

For our EK, the signature move is definitely the Shield spell. He can step into a choke point, swing away with his sword, and the first time somebody punches through his plate (AC 19 with defensive style), he throws up Shield, which means that he has AC 24 for the rest of the round. That's a pretty nice trick for crowd control. He can also cast burning hands or thunderwave if he needs to knock a bunch of foes down at once, though these days he saves most of the spell slots for shield and let's his greatsword do the damage.

Sure, the EK is more fighter than mage, so I'm not sure if that covers the "archetype" that you're looking for, but it's certainly an effective character.

If your interpretation of the RAW lets you ignore the rules around having a free hand which gives you around 1/3rd of the warcaster feat for free then yes Gish who can cast shield become a lot better. If I was in that group I would be asking the DM if I could have the cleave apart of the great weapon feat if I was a champion as the EK is already one of the better fighters and the best one at higher levels.

 

[Prism]

The Eldritch Knight in our campaign has been a very effective character. A very common interpretation of the RAW is that a character can "lean" a weapon in order to free up a single hand for spell-casting. I think even Mearls or Crawford has indicated this via tweet. If the DM is not allowing that, longsword with a free hand and "duelist" is a perfectly legitimate approach that can still do a ton of damage, and leaves that free hand open for other uses as well.

Our group allows that but not as a free action, part of the interaction with your attack. So it doesn't work for shield for us

For our EK, the signature move is definitely the Shield spell. He can step into a choke point, swing away with his sword, and the first time somebody punches through his plate (AC 19 with defensive style), he throws up Shield, which means that he has AC 24 for the rest of the round. That's a pretty nice trick for crowd control.

Trouble is once you have cast shield there is generally no reason for the monsters to continue attacking the fighter since he is so hard to hit. Much better to go and attack a squishier target and the fighter has no reaction left to threaten them. I'd say that's to opposite of crowd control and more self preservation. I know shield doesn't particularly work well for my fighter - the rest of the party tends to get punished.

 

[Zaruthustran]

yes, so a multi class wizard (specific) has higher slots then a single class wizard (general) and the specific (Higher slot) rule wins out and they can learn the higher spell...

can you at least see even if you don't agree that the rule is in need of clarification it is currently very muddy, because making a good faith effort I could almost read it either way... but it feels odd your way.

You're not reading the entirety of the rules. Here's the part you're missing:

Spells Known and Prepared.
You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells.

See? When that multiclass Wizard gains a Wizard level and adds a new spell, that new spell is limited to a spell that he could know and prepare based on his Wizard levels.

You're focused solely on Slots, which is an entirely different thing than Spells Known and Prepared. But even then, the rules clearly prevent what that Wizard player tried to do:

If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table
might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than
the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those
slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells. If a lower level
spell that you cast, like burning hands, has an
enhanced effect when cast using a higher-level slot, you
can use the enhanced effect, even though you don’t have
any spells of that higher level.

Note the callback to Spells Known and Prepared, which is the paragraph directly preceding on p 164.

The "Spells Known and Prepared" / "Spell Slots" difference is one of 5e's innovations and it's not totally intuitive, especially to players of previous editions. But trust me, the text is clear. If you're a low-level multiclass Wizard, you'll only be casting low-level Wizard spells*.

* Although, you'll be able to cast those spells in higher-level slots.

Finally, here is the deal-sealer, from the Wizard class description on p 114:

L e a r n in g Sp e l l s o f 1s t L e v e l a n d H ig h e r
Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells o f your choice to your spellbook. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have
spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table.

Where in that paragraph is the "Multiclassing Spellcaster: Spell Slots Per Level" table referenced?

It's not.

When a Wizard, multiclassed or singleclassed, gains a level he can add two wizard spells to his spellbook. Each of which must be of a level for which he has spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table.