The Problem with Star Wars

[Desdichado]

Yeah, here's the time me and my gaming group went LARPing in the park:

​

I remember that being quite the jolly 'oliday.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

See, THIS is what happens when J'Dawg and I have been going back and forth about Star Wars in five or six threads. We just need one thread for that kind of thing or the others start to border on disturbing...

Not that its a bad thing, of course.

 

[Vigilance]

Same thing with Lucas. No one could tell him that Anakin in TPM was a bad actor.

I keep seeing these references to the fact that "Lucas needs less control", "Lucas is a twis", "Lucas is the weakest link", "Someone needs to tell Lucas he's wrong".

So let me get this straight... the man tells us half of a great story, and in the process creates a universe people will be fascinated with 100 years from now, AND in the process of that changes the way movies are made (Lucas and ILM revolutionized FX forever).

Now he's telling us the first half of the story, ON HIS OWN DIME.

Let me reiterate that, because to me, its a huge deal. He could have studio backing for this film. Heck any studio would jump at the chance to make these movies. But he has paid for every dime of every prequel himself.

But he needs to take a backseat and let someone else run the show?

Uh-huh. And maybe after that we can tell him what color to paint his house and get him to shave his head, and then maybe pick out what colleges his kids will attend.

I have no problem with people saying the movies suck, although to me the films have all been of a kind (great fight scenes and FX, simple story) except for Empire Strikes Back.

But, to take it to the next level and say the man shouldn't run his own show, a show he created, seems pretty ass backwards to me.

If someone paints their house blue, walking up to them and saying "you should have painted it green" is a little silly.

Chuck

 

[Flyspeck23]

Uh-huh. And maybe after that we can tell him what color to paint his house and get him to shave his head, and then maybe pick out what colleges his kids will attend.

I don't care for his house and kids. His haircut on the other hand...

I have no problem with people saying the movies suck, although to me the films have all been of a kind (great fight scenes and FX, simple story) except for Empire Strikes Back.

IIRC, someone already said that ESB might have ruined our perception of Star Wars.
Then again, the story of the prequels hasn't been that simple (compared to IV and VI, and I'd say V too).

If someone paints their house blue, walking up to them and saying "you should have painted it green" is a little silly.

Not if all other houses in that street are also painted blue. But that's just me.

@Flyspeck
[sblock] Point taken. Sorry, I'm a conservative Christian, I tend to forget stuff like that. Back on topic? [/sblock]

[sblock] Don't worry, this thread is lost anyway. [/sblock]

 

[LilMissKittyn]

Oh, how I love to spark debate. Believe me, I'm famous in some threads for getting us hopelessly off topic.

@Barsoomcore
Jackie Chan? False ginseng? Mahjong (sorry, I can't speel)? Drunken boxing? I sincerely hope we're talking about the same movies. Otherwise, both of us are pretty lost. I know it's not a series, but it gets lengthy if you create a special group just for that movie, and everyone else caught what I meant.

I'm not talking about movies being just loved for reasons beyond the fact that they have tact and grace (considering most people don't, that would be a ridiculously shallow thing to say). It's more along the lines of something I didn't see anyone state and that certain people needed to be reminded of: movies can make money, even LOTS of money, even if they suck, or, in the case of most of the movies on the list (I don't watch crappy movies, thanks, so I don't know what bad ones to list) just lack a little bit of...tact.

Oh, and don't worry. Same here, to quote you:

Inability to show mercy to those with their feet caught in their mouths is one of my many character flaws.

I guess we both think the same thing. Don't worry, I'll have hurt your feelings before this is over. I argue rather agressively. Wait, did I say argue? I meant discuss.

A short reply (I swear) to Vigilance:
So Lucas makes these movies on his own dime. And he makes TONS of money off them, because they're famous. Guess where your money goes when you go to see the movie, or when your theatre buys the reel? That's right, straight to Lucas. So he's making a lot more money for making it with his own two cents.
In addition, most conceptualists really don't put a lot into making the film. Scriptwriters usually, to my understanding, stick around the movie scene and the director, well, directs. And good movies come out that way. Why can't Lucas sit back and let someone take charge?
I'm sorry, I forgot. It's because of his hopelessly large ego.
Just don't make him out to be a saint, he's not.

 

[Villano]

I keep seeing these references to the fact that "Lucas needs less control", "Lucas is a twis", "Lucas is the weakest link", "Someone needs to tell Lucas he's wrong".

So let me get this straight... the man tells us half of a great story, and in the process creates a universe people will be fascinated with 100 years from now, AND in the process of that changes the way movies are made (Lucas and ILM revolutionized FX forever).

Now he's telling us the first half of the story, ON HIS OWN DIME.

Let me reiterate that, because to me, its a huge deal. He could have studio backing for this film. Heck any studio would jump at the chance to make these movies. But he has paid for every dime of every prequel himself.

But he needs to take a backseat and let someone else run the show?

So, what you're saying is that Jake Lloyd was a great actor and a perfect choice for Anakin?

He used his own money? Big deal. How exactly does this place him above critism? Lucas is the weakest aspect of the prequels. We've seen it by his writing, direction, and casting. It may shock you to learn that there are actually people who are hired to cast people. The fact that Lucas poorly chose the lead of his film shouldn't be excused because he's using his own money.

If he decided to do all the FX on his own, using stop motion Play Dough characters, we can't say, "Maybe you should have other people doing that", because he used his own money?

and then maybe pick out what colleges his kids will attend.

Lucas wants his kids to go to College A. They, however, don't like that school and would rather go to College B. So, we shouldn't tell him that he shouldn't send his kids to College A because Lucas is paying for their education. He shouldn't listen to anyone else ever, no matter who they are or how wrong he is, because he's using his own money?

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

In addition, most conceptualists really don't put a lot into making the film.

That depends on your definition of conceptualist. Because the art department has a HUGE input on what goes into the film. Lucas just says "Yeah, make it look like that". These guys go out and DESIGN the whole thing. They deserve tons more credit than they get, heck they've even changed the movies at points when Lucas has loved unexpected designs.

And good movies come out that way. Why can't Lucas sit back and let someone take charge?
I'm sorry, I forgot. It's because of his hopelessly large ego.

And its also pretty ego filled to tell Lucas he SHOULD get someone else to do it because he's making HIS OWN MOVIES WRONG. No, he isn't a saint, but they are HIS. He really isn't making these movies for the fans, he's making them for himself. Selfish? Yep, but that sounds like a lot of artists I know. Other people may enjoy it, but in the end, you work on something because you feel you need to complete it.

Who's to say other people DON'T tell Lucas he's 'wrong' or should change things? Rick McCallum has a large amount of input into the movies. But just because there's someone around to take charge doesn't mean they'll do it right. Look at Jedi, Richard Marquand was the director, but Lucas had to step in and take a large amount of the responsibility because he knew what needed to be done.

I read a very good interview with one of the conceptual artists on RotS yesterday, and he makes a very good point:

Did you ever pay attention to the criticisms of the more zealous Star Wars fans about the film's look?

No, you can’t. Until you make a multi-billion-dollar company and make your own movies and fund them yourself, don’t make a comment. The people who make the most comments are the ones who haven’t done anything—they’re sitting at home wishing they could work on these films. I mean, if George went to their house and asked them if they wanted to work on his movie, they’d say “Hell yeah!” But then they’re the most critical of his films. Making a film is really difficult—even just trying to write a script would take you a year to do. I don’t think a lot of people realize it.

The rest of the interview is here if anyone is interested. Very good stuff in the art direction.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

So, what you're saying is that Jake Lloyd was a great actor and a perfect choice for Anakin?

In Lucas' opinion, yes he was perfect for Anakin. And I can see why he believe that, as the kid had the innocent look to him, but was also a little more than that. He didn't bother me like he does some, but that doesn't mean he's a horrible actor. And in the end, all that matters is that LUCAS has chosen the actor HE believes will fit the part HE wrote for HIS movie.

Who's to say someone else that you picked because you thought they'd do better would end up a thousand times worse?

He used his own money? Big deal. How exactly does this place him above critism? Lucas is the weakest aspect of the prequels. We've seen it by his writing, direction, and casting. It may shock you to learn that there are actually people who are hired to cast people. The fact that Lucas poorly chose the lead of his film shouldn't be excused because he's using his own money.

Using his own money doesn't place him above critism, but it definitely puts him on a level that other directors and writers aren't on. He's done thing all on his own. He picked the original cast on his own, so why shouldn't he do the same with the Prequels? Hindsight is twenty twenty, but at the same time, cast choices are subjective. What one person likes, another won't.

The problem comes when people state opinions as FACT, which is a fairly common occurence. You think that Jake Lloyd was a ppoor choice for the lead? Fine, but Lucas obviously didn't and he doesn't go around calling all of us for our opinions.

If he decided to do all the FX on his own, using stop motion Play Dough characters, we can't say, "Maybe you should have other people doing that", because he used his own money?

It could be argued that Lucas DOES do the effects all on his own, considering that he created ILM and effects as we know it...

 

[Vigilance]

He used his own money? Big deal. How exactly does this place him above critism? Lucas is the weakest aspect of the prequels. We've seen it by his writing, direction, and casting. It may shock you to learn that there are actually people who are hired to cast people. The fact that Lucas poorly chose the lead of his film shouldn't be excused because he's using his own money.

[alex trebek] Oooo. Wrong. I'm sorry. How much did you risk?[/alex trebek]

Um, actually, Lucas uses casting directors, they're credited and everything.

He hired them.

You see how that works? He used his own money.

What's the line from the Producers about the first rule of Broadway... "Never use your own money".

And the second rule? NEVER USE YOUR OWN MONEY!

See, here's what makes Lucas spending his own money a big deal.

If enough people agreed with you that the movies were completely worthless, he would have LOST a couple hundred million per film.

Other producer-directors, like Lucas' friend Francis Ford-Coppola lost their shirts spending their own money on movies.

It's not the safe bet you think it is.

Unless you're the guy responsible for 7 (and now 10) of the top grossing movies of all time? I mean, American Graffitti, Star Wars 4-6, Indiana Jones 1-3... you might think the man who had a big hand in all those movies knew what he was doing wouldn't you?

And for the record, I never said you didn't have the right to criticize the movies because he made them with his own money. In fact it gives you the BEST way possible to criticize them.

Vote with your feet. Don't go. Please. Encourage all your friends not to go either. Make Lucas lose money and make him hock that chunk of the old Presidio naval base he just bought to be LucasFilms new HQ for 350 million.

Cause that will leave more seats for me on opening day

Chuck

 

[Vigilance]

A short reply (I swear) to Vigilance:
So Lucas makes these movies on his own dime. And he makes TONS of money off them, because they're famous. Guess where your money goes when you go to see the movie, or when your theatre buys the reel? That's right, straight to Lucas. So he's making a lot more money for making it with his own two cents.
In addition, most conceptualists really don't put a lot into making the film. Scriptwriters usually, to my understanding, stick around the movie scene and the director, well, directs. And good movies come out that way. Why can't Lucas sit back and let someone take charge?
I'm sorry, I forgot. It's because of his hopelessly large ego.
Just don't make him out to be a saint, he's not.

No, they don't make tons of money because they're famous.

Star Trek is one of the most FAMOUS sci-fi franchises of all time. But when the movies aren't good, people tend to not go see them in the same numbers.

See how that works?

And as for Lucas being a saint. Well I never said that did I?

What I did say is that its extraordinarily gutsy for someone to put all their own money into a project and gives them EVERY right to do it exactly the way they want.

And its not a safe bet. Anyone remember Gardens of Stone? Famous book. FF Coppolla spent his own money to get it made into a movie. Famous Director. Movie bombs, Coppolla loses a LOT of money.

Again, this doesn't make Lucas a saint. I even went OUT OF MY WAY to say you had the right to criticize him.

In fact, him using his own money gives you the ULTIMATE way to show him how you feel. Don't go.

Don't go see it in the theater, don't go buy the DVD and watch it over and over to point out in detail to me how bad it sucks.

You see, if enough people do THAT, then Lucas would lose money. Which would mean he'd have to use a studio for his films. Which would give you your dream of him having to share power.

Chuck