The proper role of supporting NPCs?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

You can have your powerful NPCs, but is there a need to rub the players' noses into the latest deed the NPCs did? That's my point: One doesn't have to define and make the NPCs known as X level, or "able to cast 9th level spells", or to spotlight the NPCs' deeds.

I think another thing can be done is: There was a high level NPC (and the party might have heard of him before - but he has been killed. It's not just a rumor - people have seen the body, and possible someone responsible (or claiming to be responsible) is boasting with his deed.

This could serve well to show how others powerful NPCs might have been intimidated and are acting more careful, while the PCs are aware of a dangling plot hook - and will be intensely satisfied if they eventually meet the perpetrator and beat him (after having solved a few other problems and gained a few levels).

 

[Wyrmshadows]

You can have your powerful NPCs, but is there a need to rub the players' noses into the latest deed the NPCs did? That's my point: One doesn't have to define and make the NPCs known as X level, or "able to cast 9th level spells", or to spotlight the NPCs' deeds.

Ah, there is the rub.

Allowing the PCs to know of the NPCs abilities is 'rubbing their nose in it'? If there is a great mage, lord protector knight of the realm, warrior king, mighty high priest, etc. the PCs are going to hear about it...people talk. Taverns are full of stories NOT just those about the current batch of PCs.

IMO the problem is a subtle adversarial relationship between the DM and a competition between the PCs and signifigant setting NPCs. if this exists it is a problem at the table that extends beyond some official NPC guidelines or whatnot.

Admittedly, a 15th level wizard mentor shouldn't be traveling with a group of 5th level PCs. This would of course cause the NPC to outshine the PCs...this is the DM's fault and can be the source of anti-NPC resentment.

If the 5th level PCs are fleeing from an demonic threat and seek shelter in a known bastion of a good faith, wisely seeking somewhere to hide out and the local high priest, realistically helps them defeat the threat that they brought to his attention by using a holy word spell....then this is a legit use of a high level supporting NPC. If the player has a problem with this, then it is their issue and not the DMs problem for believably portraying the NPC.

There is a difference between having a high level NPC act believably in the context of a given campaign/story/circumstance and having an NPC 'show up' the PCs. I have never seen a believable campaign run that didn't occasionally introduce the PCs to their betters as a part of the plot, because the PCs sought them out, or whatever. The PCs do not exist in a heroic vacuum where they are insulated from those superior to them in power and ability.

In 23+yrs of DMing I have never seen my players complain because High Mage Greybeard cast meteor swarm on the battlefield while they were engaged against a threat more appropriate to their level. When they are more powerful they will be able to do what High Mage Greybeard does and perhaps will become even more powerful and he will need their help.

Everything in this discussion is context based and an attempt to quantify setting/campaign specific variables. There are no hard and fast rules for the role of NPCs except:

1. They should not be the focus of the campaign.

2. They can be more powerful than the PCs but there must be reasons they cannot be directly involved in the PCs exploits so players don't bridle under a blow to suspension of disbelief.

3. They live or die based on the DM's needs in regards to the story.

4. They can help the PCs when either asked or when their involvement is necessary for the plot. They can provide resources, contacts, succor, etc.

5. They exist to make the world seem real and dynamic and to enrich the game not to upstage the PCs or provide deus ex machina for bad storytelling on the part of the DM.


There may be others but that's the idea.



Wyrmshadows

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

Some of the thinking on this subject would actually make a setting full of weak doddering old wizards, weak doddering old kings, weak doddering old high priests, etc. that populate a world that:

1. Quails endlessly in fear while hopelessly waiting for the PCs to arrive on the scene.

Not at all.

If an NPC wizard, king, or high priest goes off on some ass-kicking world-saving quest you just don't need the PC's to follow them around and watch. If the PC's are presented with an opportunity to go on some ass-kicking world-saving adventure then they SHOULD NOT be thinking they need to report this to the king first, or tell Mr. Wizard about it so that he can deal with it INSTEAD, or ask the High Priest if he'll help them survive the experience by going with them.

Keeping the NPC's from stealing the stage that is there for the PC's to shine on is the goal. You don't have to make them weak and doddering to accomplish that - but it might help if the setting has provided an NPC whose mere existence screams for their constant appearance as deus ex machina.

2. Has villians of absolute incompetance who can't muster credible threats anywhere in the world until just as the PCs get there.

If you want villains taken care of by NPC's then do so. If you want villains taken care of by PC's then keep your NPC's away from them and LET the PC's take care of them. If the PC's are outmatched then either you screwed up by letting them get involved before they were ready or the players screwed up by ignoring your clear warnings that they weren't ready (and in that case the PC's get what's coming to them and the NPC's still don't need to be involved.)

3. Is like Elder Scrolls: Oblivion that scales everyone and everything to the PC's current level of ability. Weak, weak, weak. There must be pre-existant people and places in a setting both beyond and beneath the PCs current level or power.

In 3rd Edition it was very easy for DM's to assume that everything was SUPPOSED to scale to the PC's current level of ability - unless he'd really paid attention while reading the DMG and noticed that encounters were supposed to range from occasionally very easy to very infrequently having one or more PC's dying. And reading comprehension was again important in noting that the demographics tables were provided for use by the DM in a pinch and not as a model to base every campaign upon. That meant, of course, that DM after DM kept filling his world with unneeded and unwanted NPC's. And then there's the perennial problem existing since 1E AD&D of DM's assuming that because there are xp tables up to 20th or higher and written descriptions of spells up to 9th level that there MUST be NPC's of that level whether you want them or not and that they HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THERE - that the PC's are NEVER breaking new ground.

Being a great hero isn't usually about being the best in regards to objective power from the outset, it is developing into a great hero via heroic actions. Every hero has to start somewhere.

Getting out (and staying out) from under the skirts of NPC's is a good place for that.

 

[S'mon]

Some of the thinking on this subject would actually make a setting full of weak doddering old wizards, weak doddering old kings, weak doddering old high priests, etc. that populate a world that:

1. Quails endlessly in fear while hopelessly waiting for the PCs to arrive on the scene...

That's pretty much how I designed my current setting. There is a super-powerful BBEG (The Master, from the Master of the Desert Nomads module series) but as the campaign begins he's hundreds of miles away across two mountain ranges and engaged in machinations that will only affect the setting later. The setting is a 'Point of Light' in a dark world; there are no vast cities full of Arch-Magi and High Priests, justs the monster-haunted ruins of older, better days. If the PCs don't Step On Up, that's it.

 

[Wyrmshadows]

Not at all.

If an NPC wizard, king, or high priest goes off on some ass-kicking world-saving quest you just don't need the PC's to follow them around and watch. If the PC's are presented with an opportunity to go on some ass-kicking world-saving adventure then they SHOULD NOT be thinking they need to report this to the king first, or tell Mr. Wizard about it so that he can deal with it INSTEAD, or ask the High Priest if he'll help them survive the experience by going with them.

No, because, as I state in my last post all the DM has to do is find a believable reason not to involve the NPC. This isn't difficult if the world isn't brimming with uber-NPCs.

Keeping the NPC's from stealing the stage that is there for the PC's to shine on is the goal. You don't have to make them weak and doddering to accomplish that - but it might help if the setting has provided an NPC whose mere existence screams for their constant appearance as deus ex machina.

Fair enough. FR was guilty of this because there were a large number of extremely powerful NPCs. If I recall correctly, there were also a large number of evil NPC potential villains who were nearly, if not equally, powerful.

If you want villains taken care of by NPC's then do so. If you want villains taken care of by PC's then keep your NPC's away from them and LET the PC's take care of them. If the PC's are outmatched then either you screwed up by letting them get involved before they were ready or the players screwed up by ignoring your clear warnings that they weren't ready (and in that case the PC's get what's coming to them and the NPC's still don't need to be involved.)

Don't put words into my mouth so you can build a straw man and proceed to knock it down. I never said I wanted to have NPCs do anything of the sort. My setting is not a video game with some heroic vacuum that sticks the heroes in a bubble of cool guaranteeing them ultimate badassitude wherever they happen to be. If the PCs wisely seek help then good for them. They help others so once in awhile needing an assist is fine. Sometimes heroes wander into places that are too tough for them at their current level of experience.... happens.

{snip}...That meant, of course, that DM after DM kept filling his world with unneeded and unwanted NPC's.

Ah, there you go.

Don't speak for everyone. Uneeded by you. Unwanted by you. The demographics were provided to allow DMs to set up a believable world that DOESN'T scale up like a videogame. Lord so and so of the Shinging City, a retired adventurer, is 10th level fighter regardless of whether or not the PCs are 1st level or 13th level.

And then there's the perennial problem existing since 1E AD&D of DM's assuming that because there are xp tables up to 20th or higher and written descriptions of spells up to 9th level that there MUST be NPC's of that level whether you want them or not and that they HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THERE - that the PC's are NEVER breaking new ground.

Wow, for a perennial problem I have only really seen it vocalized by an angry minority of FR players. It is far from a burning issue for most non-FR players because most settings do not abuse the NPC/PC relationship that way FR does. Most griping I have heard comes from those who read the FR novels and come to realize that their 3rd level wizard isn't ever going to be Elminster. You want to be an Elminster type badass....earn it. Have your PC do great and heroic things. Hopefully, with skill and a lot of luck he'll live long enough to be Elminster's peer or better if the DM wants to run that high level a game.

Getting out (and staying out) from under the skirts of NPC's is a good place for that.

Good idea.

Fight your way out from under the shadows. Make your exploits so bold that they outshine those of others in the setting. Make your greatness obvious, not by merit of some mystical 'PCs are the heroes' bullocks, but by your deeds. Well realized NPC have backstories and reasons they are who they are. A low level PC is currently living the backstory that others will recall in tales when he is a reknowned paragon of heroism.

Then one day someone will outshine that PC and so the world turns.

Give me an example of any internally consistant setting that is devoid of heroes and villians far, far more powerful than low to middle level PCs. No published setting, designed for long-term RPing campaigns work that way.

I will reiterate the ways to use NPC properly:

1. They should not be the focus of the campaign though they do exist in the world and serve the function of adding to the credibility of the PCs environment.

2. They can be more powerful than the PCs but there must be reasons they cannot be directly involved in the PCs exploits so players don't bridle under a blow to suspension of disbelief.

3. They live or die based on the DM's needs in regards to the story.

4. They can help the PCs when either asked or when their involvement is necessary for the plot. They can provide resources, contacts, succor, etc.

5. They exist to make the world seem real and dynamic and to enrich the game not to upstage the PCs or provide deus ex machina for bad storytelling on the part of the DM.



Wyrmshadows

 

[Wyrmshadows]

That's pretty much how I designed my current setting. There is a super-powerful BBEG (The Master, from the Master of the Desert Nomads module series) but as the campaign begins he's hundreds of miles away across two mountain ranges and engaged in machinations that will only affect the setting later. The setting is a 'Point of Light' in a dark world; there are no vast cities full of Arch-Magi and High Priests, justs the monster-haunted ruins of older, better days. If the PCs don't Step On Up, that's it.

That works and works well from time to time. As I said before, there is no hard and fast rule on the use of NPCs because there can't be. There are too many types of stories out there that are told and in each of these the support system for the protagonists (the PCs) is different.

Sometimes the king is doddering and old and needs the PCs or the nation is doomed. Sometimes the PCs are the only powerful force that is currently free to assist the kingdom even though there are others of great power around.

Curiously, I have found that a lot of my PCs spotlight time extends well beyond who are the badest arse combatants. The story focuses on them not because they are the most powerful folks, but because the story is about them and the RPing is centered upon their interactions with the environment.

Often it is the heroes action or inaction that can, via the law of cause and effect, decide what role an NPC will play if any.



Wyrmshadows

 

[green slime]

NPC's are red coats. Their purpose is to fill in the background so the PCs aren't operating in a vacuum. They are all expendable, in one fashion or another.

Scry-Buff-Teleport is definitely not the be-all-end-all of strategies, which seemed to be suggested earlier. There are a multitude of counters that will be employed by the wiley, and there is always the risk of misinformation, misunderstanding, mis-timing and mis-teleporting.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Fair enough. FR was guilty of this because there were a large number of extremely powerful NPCs. If I recall correctly, there were also a large number of evil NPC potential villains who were nearly, if not equally, powerful.

No they weren't. FRCS 3e said that FR was about the villains. Having said that, we were only given a bit of background info about villains and stat blocks, nothing more.

In the novels, the villains were rarely as powerful as the megaheroes* and were virtually never as competent. Even if they had brains, charisma and raw power their minions would be dunces who couldn't stop stabbing each other.

I have little doubt this is the reason Red Wizards were turned into magic merchants in 3e and obliterated during 4e. (Okay, the latter probably had as much to do with magic going on the fritz...)

*Mystra had at least nine Chosen, and at least half were active over most of the life of the setting, and these were more powerful than any non-demonic/divine foe I can name. Opposing deities, like Bane, were lucky to get even one. Even Mask (who was amazing when it came to evil deities, actually having five at one time, depending on how you interpret the awesome Erevis Cale novels) had some non-villainous "Chosen".

So, to make an overly wordy post shorter, I don't think it was possible to "save" FR just by having powerful villains. Those villains were already there, and they couldn't effectively combat the heroes.

You want to be an Elminster type badass....earn it. Have your PC do great and heroic things. Hopefully, with skill and a lot of luck he'll live long enough to be Elminster's peer or better if the DM wants to run that high level a game.

Well, sure. All I have to do is sleep with a deity, get an uber-powerful template and break the rules left and right afterwards. I don't think this is reasonable. Doing great and heroic things doesn't make you into a Mary Sue Chosen.

A player can live up to a powerful hero, but not to that setting's megaheroes.

 

[S'mon]

Give me an example of any internally consistant setting that is devoid of heroes and villians far, far more powerful than low to middle level PCs. No published setting, designed for long-term RPing campaigns work that way.

My setting is like this. Now, it's designed for 3e play in the 1-10 level range, so the biggest baddest threats are around CR 10 tops, but with half standard XP it's as much a long-term-play setting as the typical 3e setting designed for levels 1-20. It's a Points of Light setting and it's up to the PCs to keep their own PoL from winking out; if they fail, it goes.

I have no investment in preserving the setting in stasis; it's consistent, but not stable. The PCs are The Heroes; sans PCs it certainly will wink out.

 

[S'mon]

That works and works well from time to time. As I said before, there is no hard and fast rule on the use of NPCs because there can't be. There are too many types of stories out there that are told and in each of these the support system for the protagonists (the PCs) is different.

Agreed. My current setting is something of a reaction to a campaign I ran in my primary long term gameworld a few years back where the PCs were 15th level but still felt powerless because they were constrained by the political machinations of the vast empire around them and by an overpowered BBEG (Heracules from Lost City of Gaxmoor - his stats are way OTT). I got pretty tired of 20th level NPCs Buff-Scry-Teleporting in to wipe out the poor schmuck antagonists.

So, I liked the 4e Points of Light concept and wanted to give it a try, so I knocked up a brand new setting with different assumptions. I came up with something inspired by CS Lewis' Narnia and the Song of Roland, with a much bigger role for Good & Evil, a small, wide-open 'dark ages' setting, and no powerful NPCs.