The Proper Use of Nudity in FRPG Art

[Erik Alt]

Who are the people harassed and why are "cis-het" white men so different from anybody else? Humans are sexual beings and like attractive people, especially in fantasy. If you want the game (or whatever) to be made for children I can understand, but D&D and most roleplaying games are for the 15+ demographic.

 

[Hussar]

Who are the people harassed and why are "cis-het" white men so different from anybody else? Humans are sexual beings and like attractive people, especially in fantasy. If you want the game (or whatever) to be made for children I can understand, but D&D and most roleplaying games are for the 15+ demographic.

That's not, nor has it ever, been true. D&D has been PG since day 1. Says so right on the covers.

 

[Hussar]

My point I want the ttrpg hobby to react to new content the way the art world or the world of cinema reacts to new paintings or movies.

All the examples were taken from outside the ttrpg hobby deliberately, to show how other "hobbys" offer alternative solutions.

How does these culture circles marry respecting women with the freedom to portray females in objectifying situations? How do they reconcile objectionable art without censure?

That's a great question and I suggest we could perhaps apply any answers to our own hobby.

The problem is, you appear to be looking for a one size fits all solution. That's never going to happen. What works in one area doesn't work in another. It's a very complex issue and has to be dealt with on an individual case basis. And, the line is going to be shifting back and forth all over the place.

What's acceptable in one venue certainly isn't in another.

 

[Hussar]

There are problems with that as a general proposition.

Paizo has and has had LGBT inclusive representation in their fantasy gaming for years and years.

As an element of the stories and art and such it makes some uncomfortable or they find such elements objectionable and they argue that this status quo should change to exclude such elements so they do not feel uncomfortable and can enjoy the fantasy gaming without the LGBT aspects and it has driven some away who wanted to be part of pathfinder.

The general Paizo fandom argue against changing it, even knowing that not changing it is keeping somebody from enjoying the hobby.

But, they made the change, people accepted it and moved on.

Good on them.

 

[Orius]

What the hell is this "maybe oversized weapons came from JRPGs" crap? There's no doubt at all about it:

 

[MGibster]

I noticed something similar in Curse of Strahd, the maiden Strahd lusts over now looks more like a pretty sexless hard bitten adventurer than a traditional Gothic Romance damsel.

This is Ireena Kolyana next to a portrait of Tatyana from the original I-6 module. She's actually a level 4 Fighter who might join the PCs and take part in combat. Ireena's an attractive woman, but I wouldn't actually describe this as a sexed up picture.

And this is Ireena from Curse of Strahd. She's different, she's a Noble in this version instead of a Fighter, but she doesn't look at all sexless to me.

To me these are both examples of inappropriate de-sexualisation of female characters, though the Strahd one is worse. At least Laurana was already a warrior, it's just now she looks not much different from the villain (shades of Captain Marvel, perhaps - a female hero who was scripted more like a traditional villain).

I'm just not seeing it. I think the original Castle Ravenloft was influenced by Hammer horror movies but fast forward to 2016 and I'm thinking most D&D players probably haven't seen one of those movies. It made sense to me to update the art. I've got a special place in my heart for the original, but I don't have any objections to the newer version.

 

[Crusadius]

To me, the fundamental question is; Is it better for the hobby to have more people playing?

I think the fundamental question for a publisher is "who do I think my target audience is and will my product appeal to them". If a publisher thinks their target audience is everyone yet includes gratuitous nudity then they are fooling themselves because its likely many potential buyers will turn their nose at a book full of "porn".

Movie studios target PG ratings for a reason - it maximises the audience numbers therefore revenue/profit. RPG publishers should also make similar decisions including whether they want a larger market for their products or not - if they're happy to cater to a niche market then good for them.

 

[billd91]

I think the fundamental question for a publisher is "who do I think my target audience is and will my product appeal to them". If a publisher thinks their target audience is everyone yet includes gratuitous nudity then they are fooling themselves because its likely many potential buyers will turn their nose at a book full of "porn".

Movie studios target PG ratings for a reason - it maximises the audience numbers therefore revenue/profit. RPG publishers should also make similar decisions including whether they want a larger market for their products or not - if they're happy to cater to a niche market then good for them.

They do target ratings to maximize profit by maximizing audience, but sometimes that’s not the story they want to tell and thus go for R. And that’s appropriate too. Both Logan and Deadpool would have sucked had they been stepped down to get a PG from the MPAA. Fortunately, they didn’t do so and those of us interested in more adult superhero stories were able to enjoy them.
The same is true of more adult themes and situations or topics that require a more adult approach in RPGs. The hobby in general should cast a wide net, but individual products can and should pick their audiences and label/market accordingly.

 

[Voadam]

But, they made the change, people accepted it and moved on.

Good on them.

You seem to have misunderstood the example.

Paizo is and has been LGBT inclusive and representative in its stories and its art. This is the baseline.

This is uncomfortable and/or objectionable to some and they have expressed a desire that the stories and art not include such elements and just be Pathfinder fantasy RPG stuff they can enjoy. That is the requested change.

The majority of the Paizo fanbase and Paizo hears these requests for change and exclusion of material that makes some uncomfortable or that they object to and reject the calls for change even knowing it will keep somebody from enjoying the hobby.

This is sort of the flipped mirror image situation of [nudity] makes [women] feel not welcome.

Your statement seems to condemn the Paizo fandom for objecting to getting rid of the LGBT representation in Pathfinder stuff.

"It's wrong for the fandom to argue against change knowing that not changing something is keeping someone from enjoying the hobby."

Its possible to still say that as a general principle but specific other principles are more important when considered together (inclusiveness, representation, whatever) but on its own as people have wildly different and contradictory tastes and preferences it will lead to cutting out a lot and give a ton of people veto over lots of stuff.

 

[ProfessorDetective]

Well, yes and no. Presuming the artwork is meant to reflect the rules of the game world, which the characters live by, a character who isn't allowed to wear armor (e.g. a D&D wizard) wouldn't be decked out in plate mail or anything of that nature. Quite often they'll instead be using a combination of spells and magic items for personal defense, which can be hard to present visually ("that cape she's wearing is actually a cloak of resistance +5, and her pendant is an amulet of natural armor +3").

Yeah, I've always been of the "crunch informs fluff" and "crunch reflects fluff" schools. If you want your PC to be viable in a harsh, usually combative, environment while seemingly ill equipped for said environment, I prefer some justification for it.

For examples: the 5E classes who can get by with minimum gear most, in my eyes, are Barbarians (Unarmored Defence and Rage making them damage sponges with only sword and/or board, plus the classic Celtic Berserker is always a fun image), Monks (Unarmored Defence and Movement allow them to dodge most attacks and dish out damage with nothing but their bare hands, plus I'm a fan of Korra and Beau), Druids (because Wildshape, plus the traditional metal taboo) and, honestly, most back-line spellcasters (plenty of protective spells), but especially Sorcerers (advantage on CON saves and the lack of a spell book). Hell, if your DM is generous with magic items or just willing to play into your concept, you can just stack on a bunch of AC boosting items (Cloak/Ring of Protection, Bracers of Defense, Brooch of Shielding, Barrier Tattoos) and wear whatever you want or nothing at all besides.

Yes, I put some thought into this beforehand. The idea of "skyclad" (a common pagan term for ritualistic nudity) adventurers gives me my kicks. I even homebrewed magic items to facilitate that "extreme minimalist" idea (a port of the Ring of Nourishment and the Ring of Comfort AKA Resist Flame/Frost since those also give you higher tolerances for extreme heat/cold). I'm weird and these theory builds are unlikely to see actual play.

In short: I'm more than fine with nudity in D&D, especially in the appropriate contexts (even if said context is 'because I want to go streaking through the dungeon"), but I don't think WotC should actively add such content to the game, they ARE marketing more to kids and families these days. And its not like the homebrew scene can't fill on the gaps.