D&D 4E The Quadratic Problem—Speculations on 4e

[gizmo33]

Because "combat power" is the product of "how much damage can he do" and "how long can he do it."



Let's not... Back up until you understand the above concept. Don't fruit the thread.

Understand what? All you did was use a synonym for multiplication (product). "The reason that you multiply x and y is because the result is the product of x and y." I'd call that cicular reasoning except that it's an insult to circles - which at least cover some distance in the journey back to the same point. I'm going to have to back up pretty far for this one.

 

[gizmo33]

Perhaps this Google Spreadsheet can help.

I don't have an issue that existing rules scale in this way. The CR system itself shows this, since 2 CR X creatures are an EL X + 2. What I was disputing is that *all possible* combat systems must scale that way over a finite domain. Given that we're talking about 4E, I thought that was the relevant point, and the original quote was an unqualified "must necessarily be quadratic" which was a pretty broad statement.

 

[robotron666]

Exactly

If "4th is the new 1st" is true, then a 1st level 4e Fighter ("brute") has a 50/50 shot against your Ogre4. Now try to make those hit, AC, damage, and hp numbers work out. The game is unrecognizable, to me.

I beleive this is correct. If you look at Star Wars saga edition (which has a "preview" of the 4e rules in it) characters begin with roughly three to five times the amount of hit points a 3e 1st level character has. They also have a higher Armor class (based on reflex defense).

These factors both increase a players survivability. However 4e damage output and to hit is still at the 3e progression, survivability is substantially higher at 1st level but damage potential is the same as 3e, meaning that a 4th edition character can stand toe to toe with the ogre, but would need help in bringing it down quickly. Otherwise the ogre's damage output would outstrip the characters survivability after a few rounds of combat.

Edit: I would note that there are some other factors that might be taken into account. The duration a characters damage output is viable (number of times that avenue of damage output is available), the magnitude of that output, and the ability to recover expended damage output. In addition, the ability to recover survivability if expended (resurrect, second wind, or hit point reserves) is also a major factor.

 

[Victim]

Understand what? All you did was use a synonym for multiplication (product). "The reason that you multiply x and y is because the result is the product of x and y." I'd call that cicular reasoning except that it's an insult to circles - which at least cover some distance in the journey back to the same point. I'm going to have to back up pretty far for this one.

Because the longer a character is able to remain active in combat, the more they can use their damage ability. If character A does 15 damage per round, then if he lasts 3 rounds he does 45 damage - 6 rounds = 90 damage. If his staying power is so low he dies before acting, then whatever damage he can deal theoretically never materializes. Multiplication in this case is completely obvious.

Things can get more complicated in a mixed group case, of course, since characters with lower staying power might be protected by other characters (ie, the wizard is in the back). And a character with low damage might not be targeted by enemies, rendering his staying power largely irrelevant.

I don't know. Suppose that there are 5 fighter/wizards facing a group of 5 bloody-bonusers. Suppose it takes 4 rounds for each PC to take down their opponent; two round they are fighting a non-bloodied monster, and two rounds they are fighting a bloodied monster.

If one of the wizard lobs a fireball and reduces the five BBs to half hit points, what changes? Well, each PC has to spend 2 rounds fighting a bloodied monster before killing it.

So the fireball helped, or at least didn't hurt. It just didn't help as much since, presumably, the BBs do most of their damage while bloodied.

The big difference is that you want to close with the fireball instead of open with it.

 

[Cheiromancer]

The big difference is that you want to close with the fireball instead of open with it.

Nothing improves your popularity like fireballing your party while they are in melee with the enemy.

 

[Victim]

Nothing improves your popularity like fireballing your party while they are in melee with the enemy.

That depends on whether or not they have fire resistance, evasion, etc. It's not an entirely unworkable strategy, and can be worthwhile. Especially if enemies bust out their crazy moves when below half HP.

 

[Henry]

I'd call that circular reasoning except that it's an insult to circles - which at least cover some distance in the journey back to the same point. I'm going to have to back up pretty far for this one.

Gents, let's not get snarky to one another. It won't help anyone understand the other's point.

 

[fuindordm]

Understand what? All you did was use a synonym for multiplication (product). "The reason that you multiply x and y is because the result is the product of x and y." I'd call that cicular reasoning except that it's an insult to circles - which at least cover some distance in the journey back to the same point. I'm going to have to back up pretty far for this one.

No, Wulf just threw you a bit of dimensional analysis.

"Combat power" has been defined in this thread as a creature's total expected damage output.
Creatures have an attack potential (expected damage per round) from their BAB and weapons.
They also have staying power (expected number of rounds in combat), which is presumably proportional to their HP.

You know that combat power equals attack potential times staying power because that is the only way to get (damage) from (damage/round) and (rounds).

Make sense now?

Very interesting thread, everyone.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Deleted. Question answered above. No need to belabor the point.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I don't know. Suppose that there are 5 fighter/wizards facing a group of 5 bloody-bonusers. Suppose it takes 4 rounds for each PC to take down their opponent; two round they are fighting a non-bloodied monster, and two rounds they are fighting a bloodied monster.

If one of the wizard lobs a fireball and reduces the five BBs to half hit points, what changes? Well, each PC has to spend 2 rounds fighting a bloodied monster before killing it.

It depends.

1) What is the order of initiative? Will the rest of the party get to act before the bloodied abilities kick in?

2) What is the nature of the bloodied ability?

a) Do they get to rage? Do they gain hit points as well as damage output?

b) Do they gain an AoE attack they did not have before? (The dragon example seems to indicate that it gets to re-up its breath weapon in exchange for being bloodied, IIRC.)