The Quality of Gaming Products Today

[Water Bob]

A set is not an adventure; it's six adventures.

Granted, it's a lot of material. But, $120 bucks, new retail, for the original set? That's too high.

And, I think some of those 128 pages are wasted with non-adventuring material. For example, in the first Kingmaker book, I think two pages are wasted on the Forword. You don't need that--not at all. It's a waste. Same goes with the 6 page story (that continues in each book of the path). To me, that's wasted space.

That's a lot of pages (around 48 pages for the entire adventure path) that should have been put to better use.

That's about a buck a book the set could be reduced right there (either by replacing that material with using gaming stuff, or making the books 120 pages).





On top of this is simple presentation. Remember those old adventures like L1 - The Secret of Bone Hill? That is a sandbox, just like the Kingmaker path, but man, did they used to pack a lot into a small number of pages. Look through Bone Hill, if you get the chance. These pages includes two fully mapped and keyed keeps (the main adventure location of Bone Hill and the Baron's castle), plus an entire town of 300+ NPCs, with every NPC detailed and located in a specific house. Plus the "sandbox" area around the town and keeps, complete with description, various random encounter charts, all of it fully mapped.

That's a ton stuff packed into 32 pages and a cover.

I think it's a better value than what I'm seeing with my first Adventure Path (Kingmaker).

I am happy with Kingmaker, so far. I just think it's over priced (and I got it for half original price).

 

[gamerprinter]

Granted, it's a lot of material. But, $120 bucks, new retail, for the original set? That's too high.

And, I think some of those 128 pages are wasted with non-adventuring material. For example, in the first Kingmaker book, I think two pages are wasted on the Forword. You don't need that--not at all. It's a waste. Same goes with the 6 page story (that continues in each book of the path). To me, that's wasted space.

I actually prefer my adventures to include additional setting material or fiction, than not.

My own 3 adventures for Kaidan - The Curse of the Golden Spear, is definitely a mix of adventure and setting material. All 3 adventures include brand new monsters, monster templates, specific setting rules as part of the appendices. I wouldn't create an adventure without such added material - which to me creates more value, not less.

My second adventure features a 2 page new class archetype for Ranger.

 

[Water Bob]

I actually prefer my adventures to include additional setting material or fiction, than not.

Setting/sourcebook material is one thing. An attempt at fiction (that is usually not written well) is entirely a waste of space that I would bet gets scanned and thereafter overlooked by most buyers of the AP

My own 3 adventures for Kaidan - The Curse of the Golden Spear, is definitely a mix of adventure and setting material. All 3 adventures include brand new monsters, monster templates, specific setting rules as part of the appendices. I wouldn't create an adventure without such added material - which to me creates more value, not less.

All of that is useable game information, and I'd agree it would add value. The Forword and the prose fiction story in the first book of the Kingmaker AP doesn't add any value what so ever.

 

[Rogue Agent]

But, I hate it when I get a book and it just feels like another GM's rantings rather than a well-written sourcebook written by a professional game designer.

90% of everything is crap.

You can attempt to control the crap-shoot of product selection by reading reviews, asking about the product on forums, following trusted creators, or focusing on proven publishers.

In the case of your particular examples, you're talking about Mongoose. This is a company built on shipping as many shoddily-designed products as possible as quickly as possible and then transitioned to using popular licenses to shovel shoddily-designed products.

Many game companies hire fans to write books for them.

Every game company hires fans. That's been true in the RPG industry since 1974.

It's been true in every other creative industry since the dawn of recorded history.

Granted, it's a lot of material. But, $120 bucks, new retail, for the original set? That's too high.

And, I think some of those 128 pages are wasted with non-adventuring material. For example, in the first Kingmaker book, I think two pages are wasted on the Forword. You don't need that--not at all. It's a waste. Same goes with the 6 page story (that continues in each book of the path). To me, that's wasted space.

Lesson #2: The world does not revolve around you.

 

[gamerprinter]

Setting/sourcebook material is one thing. An attempt at fiction (that is usually not written well) is entirely a waste of space that I would bet gets scanned and thereafter overlooked by most buyers of the AP.

Well I've never purchased a Paizo AP, so I couldn't really say if the fiction provided was any good or not, though I've heard good things from others on it - I just don't know.

In my race and faction books, most start with 'in-character' introductions, but then it's from the point of view of a member of the race or faction the supplement is based on. So while somewhat 'fiction-y', it does have a purpose and value.

I can't say, that I'd never put pure fiction into one of my publications, but so far, haven't felt the need to do so.

I have thought about creating a possible guide to ghost templates for Kaidan, and in such a project creating a short ghost story fiction, might be worthwhile, I think.

The forward section of each of my 3 adventures in The Curse of the Golden Spear gives a GM a prospectus on what the adventure is about - sort of as a preview guide to the content that follows.

 

[prosfilaes]

I am happy with Kingmaker, so far. I just think it's over priced (and I got it for half original price).

If that overpriced is supposed to mean something objective, you're wrong. It's priced at the same price its competitors are* and the same price that RPG adventures have been priced at in the past. That looks to be the price at which RPG adventures can reasonably be printed and sold at. Expressing your displeasure with it isn't particularly helpful, since nobody could actually do anything about it.

That's a lot of pages (around 48 pages for the entire adventure path) that should have been put to better use.

That's about a buck a book the set could be reduced right there (either by replacing that material with using gaming stuff, or making the books 120 pages).

Even assuming your analysis is correct, would $6 really make difference? In any case, if we're going to quibble over nickles and dimes, you can get the last 5 adventures in the Kingmaker series from Amazon (the first is now out of print on Amazon) for $93.13, a savings of $27 dollars from $100 MSRP.

On top of this is simple presentation. Remember those old adventures like L1 - The Secret of Bone Hill?

If that's what you want, then look for that. DriveThruRPG has 1,000 adventures for D&D, and by necessity, most of them are smaller and more austere then the Pathfinder Adventure Paths. It's legitimate not to like things about a product, but when you're complaining about a product for being what it was intended to be, perhaps it's time to just find a product that fits your needs.

Edit: http://www.enworld.org/forum/en-wor...review-halls-undermountain-wizards-coast.html lists a recent WotC adventure as a 96 page hardcover with map for $30 MSRP. The Kingmaker Pathfinder AP comes with several maps in a map folio for the entire AP for $16 MSRP, which averages to $3.20 for each 96 page softcover. Again, the Pathfinder APs are priced competitively in the market.

 

[Zhaleskra]

This is a bit old as Planescape products started coming out in the early 90s, "perfect bound" is the most misnamed binding type ever. Out of all my RPG products, what kind of binding falls apart first? That's right, "perfect" bound.

 

[jasper]

... It seems to me that the quality has dropped. More often, in the past, I'd buy a book and be tickled pink. Too often today, I see some supplemental book, and it seems nothing more than GM Home Brew material.

...

Edit Skip this post waterbob as you not a newbie but for others... end edit

You are forgetting option 3. New hobby got to buy them all. After 1 or 2 years, your standards/knowledge/perception has gone up.
it has happen with me in various hobbies. I was into rc planes. The Prez of a local club said,"Newbies should just buy one basic trainer plane. Then only fuel/btty as needed for a year."
ps with any hobby a lot of junk exist.