The (quintessential) paladin prestige class

[Sonofapreacherman]

Version 1.2.

Added the ability Honorable Combat to the prestige class.

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INSERT
Page 86 of the DUNGEON MASTER's Guide, between the loremaster and the shadowdancer.

Paladin
Every description in the Player's Handbook between pages 41 and 44 holds sway, except where indicated below.

No one ever chooses to be a paladin. Becoming a paladin is answering a call, accepting one's destiny. The compassion to pursue good, the will to uphold law, and the power to defeat evil-these are the three weapons of the paladin. Few have the purity and devotion that it takes to walk the paladin's path, but those few are rewarded with the power to protect, to heal, and to smite. In a land of scheming wizards, unholy priests, bloodthirsty dragons, and infernal fiends, the paladin is the final hope that cannot be extinguished.
The paladin takes their adventures seriously and have a penchant for referring to them as "quests". Even a mundane mission is, in the heart of the paladin, a personal test-an opportunity to demonstrate bravery, to develop martial skills, to learn tactics, and to find ways of doing good. Clerics, monks, rangers, and warriors primarily answer the call of paladinhood, while ex-bards, rogues, sorcerers, and wizards are more inclined towards artifice and subterfuge than paladins generally embrace. Berserkers and druids rarely become paladins, as doing so contradicts the instinctive nature of who they are.
As NPCs, paladins really come into their own when leading mighty campaigns against evil, or setting off on their own to further the causes of good and law. They work well with good and lawful clerics, and they appreciate working with those who are brave, honest, and committed to good. While they cannot abide evil acts by their companions, they are otherwise willing to work with a variety of people quite different from themselves. All paladins, regardless of background, recognize in each other an eternal bond that transcends culture, race, and even religion.

Hit Die: d10.

Requirements
To qualify to become a paladin, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: Lawful good.
Base Attack Bonus: +6.
Concentration or Knowledge (religion): 2 ranks.
Ride: 5 ranks.
Feats: Improved Disarm, Leadership.
Special: The paladin must have made peaceful contact with a good outsider from whom they successfully preformed a quest and were deemed worthy of divine blessing.

Class Skills
All of the following are class features of the paladin prestige class.
The paladin's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Ride (Dex). See chapter 4: Skills for skill descriptions.

Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Table 2-16: The Paladin
Class-Base-Fort-Refl-Will
Level-Attk-Save-Save-Save-Special
1st---+1---+2---+0---+0---Detect evil, divine health,
--------------------------lay on hands
2nd---+2---+3---+0---+0---Divine grace, smite evil 1/day
3rd---+3---+3---+1---+1---Aura of courage, turn undead
4th---+4---+4---+1---+1---Remove disease 1/week
5th---+5---+4---+1---+1---Special mount
6th---+6---+5---+2---+2---Honorable combat
7th---+7---+5---+2---+2---Remove disease 2/week
8th---+8---+6---+2---+2
9th---+9---+6---+3---+3
10th--+10--+7---+3---+3---Remove disease 3/week

Table 2-16: The Paladin (continued)
Spells per Day
Class
Level-1st-2nd-3rd-4th
1st---0
2nd---1
3rd---1---0
4th---1---1
5th---1---1---0
6th---1---1---1
7th---2---1---1---0
8th---2---2---1---1
9th---2---2---2---1
10th--2---2---2---2

Class Features
Spells: Beginning at 1st level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells. To cast a spell, the paladin must have an Wisdom score of at least 10 + the spell's level, so a paladin with an Wisdom of 10 or lower cannot cast these spells. Paladin bonus spells are based on Wisdom, and saving throws against these spells have a DC of 10 + spell level + the paladin's Wisdom modifier (if any). When the paladin gets 0 spells of a given level, such as 0 1st level spells at 1st level, the paladin gets only bonus spells. (A paladin without a bonus spell for that level cannot yet cast a spell of that level.) The paladin's spell list appears below. A paladin has access to any spell on the list and can freely choose which to prepare, just like a cleric. A paladin prepares and casts spells just like a cleric does (though the paladin cannot spontaneously cast cure spells).
Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, a paladin applies their Charisma modifier (if positive) as a bonus to all saving throws.
Smite Evil (Sp): Once per day, a paladin of 2nd level or higher can attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. The paladin adds their Charisma modifier (if positive) to their attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level (e.g., an 5th level paladin armed with a longsword would deal 1d8+5 points of damage, plus any additional bonuses for high Strength or magical effects that normally apply. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect but is still used up for that day. Smite evil is a supernatural ability.
Aura of Courage (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Allies within 10 feet of the paladin gain a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects. Granting the morale bonus to allies is a supernatural ability.
Remove Disease (Sp): Beginning at 4th level, a paladin can remove disease, as the spell remove disease, once per week. Paladin can use this ability more often as they advance in levels (twice per week at 7th level and three times per week at 10th level). Remove disease is a spell-like ability for the paladin.
Honorable Combat (Su): Once per day, a paladin of 6th level or higher can enter into single combat against a chosen target. Third party members may not directly or indirectly assist either combatant unless they succeed in making a Willpower saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 the paladin's prestige class level + the paladins Charisma modifier). Failing this save prevents the third party member from taking any action for 1 round (but allows them to defend themselves normally) as per the spell daze. Charmed and/or summoned creatures, creatures immune to mind-influencing effects, cohorts, companions, familiars, special mounts, and servants of the two primary combatants ignore the effects of honorable combat but can be attacked normally by third party members. Honorable combat may be dispelled at will by the paladin, but the effect otherwise lasts until one of the two primary combatants is defeated or flees (placing at least one mile distance between the combatants). Activating honorable combat is a standard action.

Paladin Spell List
Paladins choose their spells from the following list:
1st level-bless, bless weapon, cure light wounds, detect poison, detect undead, divine favor, endure elements, magic weapon, protection against evil, read magic, resistance, virtue.
2nd level-aid, bull's strength, cure moderate wounds, daylight, delay poison, remove paralysis, resist elements, shield other.
3rd level-cure serious wounds, discern lies, dispel magic, greater magical weapon, heal mount, magic circle against evil, prayer, remove blindness/deafness.
4th level-cure critical wounds, death ward, dispel evil, freedom of movement, holy sword, neutralize poison.

SPECIAL MOUNT
Table 2-17: Special Mounts
Paladin
Character--Bonus-Natural-Str
Level------HD----Armor---Adj.-Int-Special
12 or less-+2 HD-+1------+1---6---Empathic link, improved evasion,
----------------------------------share saving throws, share spells
13-15------+4 HD-+3------+2---7---Command creatures of its kind,
----------------------------------speak with paladin
16-18------+6 HD-+5------+3---8---Blood bond
19-20------+8 HD-+7------+4---9---Spell resistance

Paladin Character Level: The character level of the paladin (paladin levels plus all other class levels).

Blood Bond: The mount gains a +2 bonus to attacks, checks, and saves if it witnesses the paladin threatened or harmed. This bonus lasts as long as the threat us immediate and apparent.)

 

[Someone]

Which, as we have pointed out, is not nearly enough to compensate such blindingly superhuman individuals as CAN become Paladins for doing so. It makes me wonder if SoaPM is making this class a punishment!

That must be, or pehaps a tests. If you somehow manage to survive ten levels of this class at My service, which I seriouly doubt, I´ll make you the most powerful of mortals!"

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Al.

A paladin with an Intelligence of 13, a Charisma of 1, a Strength of 3, and a Wisdom of 3 *could* qualify to be a paladin. Heck, such a paladin could exist under the existing Player's Handbook system right now. That is the beauty of 3rd edition Dungeons and Dragons. There are no prerequisites for character classes. You can be a paladin with a Charisma of 1 if you like, but you won't be a very effective paladin. The Charisma dependant abilities of a paladin won't let you. Regardless of Expertise (the prerequisite for Improved Disarm) having a minimum Intelligence requirement of 13, the core attributes of paladinhood remain the same. Charisma, Strength, and Wisdom are the still the attributes that define a paladin.

As for the Leadership feat and role-playing, my point above extends to this issue as well. Not every paladin prestige class will be running-the-show as you say, because not every paladin will have high Charisma (and consequently not every paladin will have a high Leadership Score). What the Leadership feat does guarantee is that every paladin leads by example, which consequently draws people to them.

-----

Lily Inverse and Someone.

Leadership is powerful. Underestimating the strength of numbers will only be your undoing. Style of game play holds no sway in this argument either. Regardless of your game style, the mechanic of the Leadership feat allow paladins to raise a small army without *ever* settling down. I have abosutely NO idea were you got that notion from Lily. Dungeons and Dragons adventures and epic battles are both called campaigns for a reason. They can be short and sweet or they can be long and drawn out. What they do not have is a fixed time that requires settling down.

As for your attribute breakdown, your analysis confirms two points very strongly. One, that you place two much emphasis on Dexterity and Constitution bonus (if you think a +1 modifier is going to make any *shocking* impact on your character), and two, that you never play characters with average, or below average attributes (your loss to role-playing, not mine). Not every paladin will have high attribute scores. Nor do they need them. For example...

You wouldn't use anything less than 32 points to create a paladin? Okay, I'll use 28 points and start my 1st level (potential paladin) fighter using the "Tougher Campaign" total. Such a fighter will begin with Strength 14, Dexterity 10, Constitution 10, Intelligence 12, Wisdom 13, and Charisma 15.

Over 6 levels of being a fighter, I would make my 7 total feat choices Ambidexterity and Two Weapon fighting at 1st level, Power Attack at 2nd level, Shield Expert at 3rd level, Expertise at 4th level (choosing +1 Intelligence at the same time), and Improved Disarm and Leadership at 6th level... all before becoming a paladin at 7th level (the earliest point possible). I would thereafter choose +1 Charisma as my attribute bonus at 8th level (the same level that I gain the smite evil ability), and Divine Might feat at 9th level (the same level that I gain the turn undead ability). If I was playing a human, add Mounted Combat to my 1st level feat list. Finally, at 12th level (6th level paladin) I would choose almost any mounted combat feat (if not "Mounted Combat" for a demi-human character) and +1 Wisdom (gaining access to my 4th level paladin spells in the next two levels).

Strength 14, Dexterity 10, Constitution 10, Intelligence 13, Wisdom 14, Charisma 16.

You'd be surprised how *little* impact attributes have where normal challenge level races are concerned.

Despite these statistics, this paladin would have no difficulty kicking some serious butt. Such a paladin could fight with a large spiked wooden shield (d6 damage) as an offhand weapon and still retain the +2 bonus to AC with their Shield Expert feat. This paladin could also convert any one of their 8 turn undead attempts per day into a +3 damage bonus across 9 potential attacks (3 per round for 3 rounds) with the Divine Might feat.

As you can plainly see, my paladin prestige class is no slouch in the combat department. Glad I could help clear that up.

As for the Intelligence 13 requirement being above average... you're absolutely correct. Paladins *should* have slightly above average Intelligence.

That's been my point the whole time!

As for the remark you made about a Charisma score of 3, see my comments to Al. If you really want to play a paladin with a Charisma score that low, I would be curious to see if you could competently pull it off.



-----

Why do you insist on stating that unless a paladin has a 12 INT and then devotes one of his precious attribute-boosts to INT, than he is plainly a paladin that will be played as Lawful Stupid?

Oh I don't know. Because I *never* said that? What I *did* say was that it's not easy to be a paladin. Having an Intelligence of 13+ is one of the many hurdles that a hopeful paladin must face.

 

[Lily Inverse]

Leadership is powerful. Underestimating the strength of numbers will only be your undoing. Style of game play holds no sway in this argument either. Regardless of your game style embraces, the mechanic of the Leadership feat allow paladins to raise a small army without *ever* settling down. I have abosutely NO idea were you got that notion from Lily. Dungeons and Dragons adventures and epic battles are both called campaigns for a reason. The can be short and sweet or they can be long and drawn out. What they do not have if a fixed time that requires settling down.

Unfortunately, a simple look at the economics of keeping large numbers of people fed, clothed, equipped, and rested is the limiting factor here. Yes, Leadership is quite powerful, however, your 16 Cha Paladin, as early 13th level, is going to have 28 people following him around. Not many inns will accept this kind of entourage all at once, and fewer still will simply be keeping enough meat around to provide for them. And 25 of them are not going to accept being forced to sleep out in the stables while your seargeants, cohort, companions, and yourself sleep in a bed. When equipment breaks, you need to have some way of providing for it to be fixed, and equipment breaks a LOT when you're marching off in the wilderness for months on end. Furthermore, the first time you forget to bring enough food on one of these little excursions, the problem multiplies. For an evil leader, these might not be a big deal, as you can just find a town and set your small horde on them. But Paladins must deal with these problems through legitimate channels. The easiest would probably be to dismiss your private army and make do without. Also, imagine how much WORSE these problems could be when the number gets up to a full hundred followers!

You might not be tied to a single castle or temple, but you're going to find yourself having to stick fairly close to supply lanes, and thus your traveling area will be severely limited. Planehopping will almost certainly be right out unless you can make other provisions for your followers while you go off and do things that would get them killed. So yes, Leadership is VERY limiting to the campaign style. I know of no GM in this area who allows it based on these very issues, not out of a sense of game balance.

As for your attribute breakdown, your analysis confirms two points very strongly. One, that you place two much emphasis on Dexterity and Constitution bonus (if you think a +1 modifier is going to make any *shocking* impact on your character), and two, that you never play characters with average, or below average attributes (your loss to role-playing, not mine).

Hardly true! I often play with a low attribute or two. But it's rare for me to play against type, yet that is just what you propose Paladins do, by not ALLOWING them a type!

Not every paladin will have high attribute scores. Nor do they need them. For example...

You wouldn't use anything less than 32 points to create a paladin? Okay, I'll use 28 points and start my 1st level (potential paladin) fighter using the "Tougher Campaign" total. Such a fighter will begin with Strength 14, Dexterity 10, Constitution 10, Intelligence 12, Wisdom 13, and Charisma 15.

I'll conceed the point. 32 is usually what the GM I play with the most uses (but he tends to use 36 or 38 for his NPCs) But what I meant was to compare this against the 25 for a "standard campaign." It's here, the average, where your scores break down. And I was under the impression that 4d6- 1 roll tended to produce characters around 25 points.

As for the Intelligence 13 requirement being above average... you're absolutely correct. Paladins *should* have slightly above average Intelligence.

That's been my point the whole time!

And you missed mine completely. Despite being in that range above the scale, there is nothing "slightly" above average about a 13 Int among the common crowd. These people are usually considered extremely intelligent by those around them. Nobody would ever mistake them for a genius, but most would agree that they are something VERY special. If you want "slightly" above average an 11 would be far more appropriate.

I'm a little short on time here to make a comment about your putting together combat-based Paladin....but later I'll see how this stacks up to a fighter-Cleric at similiar levels. However, it still looks to me like you may be in for a rather unpleasant shock.

 

[Jerrid Al-Kundo]

That's the problem. Your past makes you automatically sympathetic to the side perceived to be roleplayers and against the perceived powergamers. You should take this example exclusively, and ask whether the criticisms really are valid. Further, you should ask whether valid queries about balance and/or game niche automatically makes people powergamers.

I already indicated that valid queries don't make one automatically a powergamer. However, repeating queries again and again because changes aren't being made that are desirable to the query-maker is often a sizable indication. When the only validation for those queries is to point to other PClasses printed in a horribly written splat-book as comparison, then more indicators start to fall into place.

But as SoaPM's last post points out, this PClass is no slouch... If anything, it's advantages aren't spelled out as clearly as the delights people find in the splat-books.

 

[Jerrid Al-Kundo]

Lily I:

I'm currently running a game centered around an army-on-the-move; The economics are actually quite easy to figure out. While 3E hasn't addressed the issue, there are dozens of Dragon articals over the past 25 years that go over it several different ways.

I'd have to say, the only limiting factor would be a desire to figure it out. After all, you indicate right off the difficulty of getting an inn to take in 28 people. Why would 28 people bother with an inn, though? They wouldn't. Rather, they would set up a temporary (or even semi-permenant) camp from which to handle affairs.

Once you do that, the "economics" change dramatically from those of maintaining the standard party of adventurers. Thus, comparing those economics to those of the standard party or generalizing them with blanket statements is dramatically inefficient in getting to the base of the matter.

 

[Lily Inverse]

Jerid. . .

I would suppose this is my point. Once you do this, many options for a "normal" adventuring party simply no longer exist, and in their place different options appear. If you're going to insist on dragging an army everywhere you go, there are simply things that you can no longer do. This is not necessairly a bad thing, but by necessity it limits the playing styles you can utilize. By making it a requirement for a certain prestiege class, you add a flavor to that class of a leader, commanding his troops from behind the front lines, and only going out to do battle against the leader of the opposition. I would argue this is counter to the image of the Paladin as the lone hero, striving against all odds with only a few trusted companions at his side.

Moreover, followers would need to be chosen very carefully for any extended trek. 25 fighters and three Paladin hopefuls simply isn't going to cut it. A few will probably have to be Rogues or Experts, several Rangers or Barbarians will be needed (and Barbarians aren't allowed for Paladins unless they're Ex-Barbarians) to keep the group well-fed, and of course a priest or two is going to be absolutely necessary.

What happens if your reputation doesn't attract all of the right kinds of professions? You're going to need to hire out, but that takes money. You need equipment and horses to carry it all, and more money is needed for that. Who pays for all this? If Paladins are giving away their pocket money (And I dont' have any indication that they are or are not in SoaPM's campaign), then it can't be the hero. The Church almost certainly isn't going to support this expensive little endeavor. And what happens when the horses and wagons are brought up against terrain they can't cross? I could go on, but I'm sure these are all concerns you've thought of (and more!), Jerid, and they can certainly make an interesting source for a campaign all by themselves. But these are hardly things that six adventurers sitting around the table in the dark corner of the tavern would be pondering.

Is Leadership a bad feat, or underpowered? No, unless the DM wishes it to be. However, it is one that requires careful consideration before it's allowed into the campaign. By its very nature it dictates certain campaign styles will be used over others, the very reason that it is in the DMG and not the PHB. This is hardly irrelevant when discussing a PrC intended for PCs with Leadership as a requirement, as SoaPM would have one believe. It can not just be "thrown in" and expected to not change the way time is spent in the game. Maybe he's thought of this, maybe he hasn't, but he indicates that he hasn't actually put any thought into this at all, which is why I belabor the point.

 

[Jerrid Al-Kundo]

This is not necessairly a bad thing, but by necessity it limits the playing styles you can utilize.

It's not limiting; It's different. By stating that it's limiting, you are completely ignoring the new options available that weren't before.

By making it a requirement for a certain prestiege class, you add a flavor to that class of a leader, commanding his troops from behind the front lines, and only going out to do battle against the leader of the opposition.

You're right. Perhaps Knowledge (War) should be added to the Prereqs and made a Class Skill.

I would argue this is counter to the image of the Paladin as the lone hero, striving against all odds with only a few trusted companions at his side.

Isn't Charlamagne the historical model of the paladin? Didn't he lead armies?

Didn't the Knights of the Round Table also lead armies through battles and wars?

I'd say that this PClass nails down one ideal fairly well. As has been pointed out, there are other PClasses that exemplify the other ideas.

Moreover, followers would need to be chosen very carefully for any extended trek. 25 fighters and three Paladin hopefuls simply isn't going to cut it. A few will probably have to be Rogues or Experts, several Rangers or Barbarians will be needed (and Barbarians aren't allowed for Paladins unless they're Ex-Barbarians) to keep the group well-fed, and of course a priest or two is going to be absolutely necessary.

Well, having a no-clerics campaign, I'd argue that Expert (Surgeon) would be a suitable class, but I'll concede for your dependance on Core Standards. So would Warriors. Perhaps a Huntsman or two (Primal Codex version). Shaman (again, Primal Codex) could help in crossing wilderness areas.

What happens if your reputation doesn't attract all of the right kinds of professions? You're going to need to hire out, but that takes money. You need equipment and horses to carry it all, and more money is needed for that. Who pays for all this? If Paladins are giving away their pocket money (And I dont' have any indication that they are or are not in SoaPM's campaign), then it can't be the hero. The Church almost certainly isn't going to support this expensive little endeavor.

Nice, bold Paladin raises army in the name of the church and the church doesn't like it?

Why not?

Heck, he's saving them quite a bit of trouble, gathering all those people to their banner and fighting major battles for them.

As far as expense, I've found the "standard" amount of treasure is far more than adequate in maintaining these expenses. Of course, you're buying less magic items than usual, but that's part of the job when you choose to run an army (as members of this class obviously have).

And what happens when the horses and wagons are brought up against terrain they can't cross? I could go on, but I'm sure these are all concerns you've thought of (and more!), Jerid, and they can certainly make an interesting source for a campaign all by themselves. But these are hardly things that six adventurers sitting around the table in the dark corner of the tavern would be pondering.

This is one of those "style" things you mentioned earlier, isn't it?

Is Leadership a bad feat, or underpowered? No, unless the DM wishes it to be. However, it is one that requires careful consideration before it's allowed into the campaign. By its very nature it dictates certain campaign styles will be used over others, the very reason that it is in the DMG and not the PHB.

Can't it's exclusion be given the same regard? After all, by not allowing it, the DM has dictated one campaign style over the other.

This is hardly irrelevant when discussing a PrC intended for PCs with Leadership as a requirement, as SoaPM would have one believe.

Considering that he's stated that it is a powerful Feat, I'd hardly say he's considering it irrelevant.

It can not just be "thrown in" and expected to not change the way time is spent in the game. Maybe he's thought of this, maybe he hasn't, but he indicates that he hasn't actually put any thought into this at all, which is why I belabor the point.

I've thus far have a group of PClasses that require Leadership; All are related to a single military organization (5 Classes, in fact, with 4 of them requiring at least 1 Level of the other, and that one requires Leadership).

This inclusion is quite intentional.

 

[Al]

Al.

A paladin with an Intelligence of 13, a Charisma of 1, a Strength of 3, and a Wisdom of 3 *could* qualify to be a paladin. Heck, such a paladin could exist under the existing Player's Handbook rule system right now. That is the beauty of 3rd edition of Dungeons and Dragons. There are no prerequisites for character classes. You can be a paladin with a Charisma of 1 if you like, but you won't be a very effective paladin. The Charisma dependant abilities of a paladin won't let you. Regardless of Expertise (the prerequisite for Improved Disarm) having a minimum Intelligence requirement of 13, the core attributes of paladinhood remain the same. Charisma, Strength, and Wisdom are the still the attributes that define a paladin.

As for the Leadership feat and role-playing, my point above extends to this issue as well. Not every paladin prestige class will be running-the-show as you say, because not every paladin will have high Charisma (and consequently not every paladin will have a high Leadership Score). What the Leadership feat does guarantee is that every paladin leads by example, which consequently draws people to them.

A good defense, but unfortunately it still rings hollow. The fact is that such a paladin could exist under the Player's Handbook, but this is not the issue. The issue is your proposed paladin. There are no prerequisites for any of the core classes in the PHB, so discussing them is a diversion.
The objection I am still trying to make is that Intelligence is *demanded* but Charisma, Wisdom and Strength are not. Now, whilst the sensible paladin player would obviously deploy high stats in these ability scores (assuming he has enough to go round: see Lily's points), they are not demanded. Yet your logic for the Intelligence requirement is that they fit more into 'paladinhood'. However, in making Intelligence a *requirement* and Str/Wis/Cha a *recommendation*, it is implicit in the prerequisites that Intelligence is more necessary to the paladin than Str/Wis/Cha. You are sending the message that the Intelligence requirement supersedes the unstated 'requirement' of the other three. It would be like making a Str-based fighting prestige class with Wis as a requirement; or an Int-based magical prestige class with Dex as a requirement. Whilst both of these are useful to the aforesaid classes, they are not the crux. If any ability score is to be demanded, surely it should be the central one(s). I would be far happier if you implaced Str/Wis/Cha requirements *as well*, because at the current the requirements don't link well to the class concept. To whit, this objection is not simply a mechanical one- it is a conceptual and logical one.

As for your second point, this is an interesting twist. However, once again, you ignore a particular 'breed' of paladin: those charismatic but yet who play a servile role. The Knights of the Round Table served under King Arthur et al. and were not independent leaders. Granted, they commanded armies, but these armies were those of Arthur, and not theirs. What of the concept of the 'humble' paladin, with a quiet form of charisma? Is this archetype to be swept away as well? Finally, even with an abysmal charisma (1), by the end of this prestige class will have at least two dozen followers. This is a fair force. If you wish the paladin to 'lead by example', why is a mechanical feat required? Can you not simply award the paladin followers based on his action in the game, rather than rely on a clunky mechanic?

 

[Lily Inverse]

Can't it's exclusion be given the same regard? After all, by not allowing it, the DM has dictated one campaign style over the other.

Yes, exclusion does insert an entirely different flavor into campaigns. I never said that it didn't. Both ways are limiting, in very different ways.

Considering that he's stated that it is a powerful Feat, I'd hardly say he's considering it irrelevant.

He's not considering the FEAT irrelvant, he has explicitly stated that its effect on play style is irrelevant. I have demonstrated that it's not irrelevant, it brings up all sorts of questions. Whether he considers those questions interesting challenges or inane annoyances is the issue, not the power of the feat. If he is simply ignoring the questions, then the feat goes beyond powerful and into munchkinism.

I've thus far have a group of PClasses that require Leadership; All are related to a single military organization (5 Classes, in fact, with 4 of them requiring at least 1 Level of the other, and that one requires Leadership).

This inclusion is quite intentional.

This suits the campaign you've described rather well. Good job on that. I would argue, however, that SoaPM is favoring one Paladin archtype over all others. This does a great disservice to many who would play alternate Paladin characters, and play them well. A Paladin is not necessarily a great leader of men and armies. A Paladin IS necessarily a holy warrior, dedicated to advancing the causes of his faith.

I can think of at least one Paladin type that completely goes against his entire vision from the Forgotten Realms setting: The Paladins of Firehair. These champions are highly individualistic, seeking to find places and people of great beauty to defend. They reject the company of large groups to find peace and love with a few chosen companions, often growing very close to these. However, they are still Lawful Good, and still champions of their chosen patron. (It should be noted that Sune IS somewhat more forgiving of transgression on the Law axis than normal, as she's an exception to the limitations that a Paladin cannot have a Chaotic patron diety.) How would he propose to handle something like this? Surely they must not be Paladins!