The (quintessential) paladin prestige class

[Lily Inverse]

I'd disagree with this. Can the paladin not do good deeds in the vicinity, such as helping the community and such like? There is more to paladinhood than just bashing baddies.

This point is only valid in-game as long as nothing is occuring outside the Paladin's immediate vicinity, but within traveling distance. Staying still in this instance, especially for a battle-focused Paladin, is worthy of requiring atonement.

Finally, her point about the Paladins of Firehair (or whatever) is irrelevant. DMs should not stay fettered to published campaign settings. Just because the FR guide has a different concept of paladinhood (and it is quite deviant from the 'core' paladin) it does not mean that it should impose. Dogmatic observation of every published setting is bound to bring up confusion at best and contradiction at worst.

I provided them merely as an example of one Paladin type that would make little to no use of Leadership. I was attempting to point out the Paladins aren't necessarily about leading armies The Paladins of Firehair are just the most wildly divergent example I had at-hand, but there are others on that same page that, with some thought, are actually a bit more worthy of discussion.

Azuth(Also Deneir, et al): Paladins of the god of Mages tend to start as Paladins for a time, then devote themselves to the art of wizardry. (According to previous additions) These characters often adventure to seek out ancient ruins, particularly from the time of Netheril, so that the knowledge within can be used by future generations. (IMO, very odd group to be constantly prepared for a war, you'd think they'd want to attract as little attention as possible, what with all that research and spelunking they must do)

Ilmater: Paladins of the Broken God guard the weak and use their healing powers on those that need them. They are not shy about fighting evil, but they would rather pause to heal someone who is about to die than sacrifice that life in order to persue fleeing evildoers. Almost pascifistic. Very unlikely to attract a retinue of following warriors going everywhere. While you might be able to make a case for a group of healer-type characters, but this is still counter to the image of the leader of armies that SoaPM seems to be trying to inspire.


Leadership may be powerful, but I would argue it's just not always appropriate enough to be forced down a prospective Paladin's throat. The three examples I've provided all fit into the description given for Paladins in the PHB, and yet not one of them is really "Leader" material. in the sense that SoaPM seems to be talking about.

To sum up all the arguments I've seen against this class:

The statistic requirements are far too high (SoaPM STILL hasn't shown how to make a viable Paladin using average stats), and thus de-emphasizes those key stats.

Just copied from the Blackguard, a horribly uninspired approach (True, but not necessarily a bad thing.

The Leadership feat is spurious and further excludes many members of the archtypical Paladin from actually taking the class. I think I've demonstrated that well enough by providing these examples taken directly from an official source. Even if you don't use the campaign setting itself, all three ARE, in fact, perfectly viable interpretations of the "standard" Paladin.

On the whole, this strikes me as a very twisted view of the Paladin itself. If we look back, the class has never recieved a retinue of followers (unless they did in first edition), and yet now SoaPM insists that it's only natural that they have one. The Paladin class has also never had an Intelligence requirement, yet SoaPM believes that they must be of superior intelligence. Not "above average" but so rare that one is unlikely to find anyone quite this good in anything less than a large town. Not only a disregard for creativity in moderate re-interpretations of what's in the book, but a disregard for history as well. As anything other than a Paladin, this class would have much more approval from me.

 

[Lily Inverse]

I guess that depends on Edition. But visiting the 3E Dragonlance Board, you'll find that they're now PClasses built on Paladins. By your "stay in place" restriction, however, they'd never qualify.

In terms of abilities, Knights of Solamnia are very similar to Paladins. Basing the new classes on the Paladin core class would only be sensible. This does not, however, make them Paladins. They are a very different group and have very different priorities.

"Shoehorn"?

Y'know, you tie such interesting terms to this discussion.

I'm going to choose to take that as a compliment

But, we'll take this as is: Isn't a PClass by nature a specific role in the setting it's used in? Yet your denouncing this class for having a specific role..?

You've just stated the definition of a PrC, something that goes beyond the "Core 12." Core classes serve as specific skillsets and abilities, not necessarily as specific roles. Fighters all fight, but one could be an archer, one could be an axe-wielder, and a third could even eschew strength and fight with a rapier. By forcing Paladins in to a particular, and really rather colorful, feat tree SoaPM has essentially placed the Paladin in with the likes of the other PrCs. This is bad because it removes the meaning of being able to choose your way as one would in the Core class.

This is a flavor issue, Paladins are holy warriors dedicated to the service of their god, or in the absence of a god, the generic concepts of Good and Order. This is ALL they are, and to actually BE a Paladin a replacement class should support this idea. Note that there is nothing in particular about a Paladin that requires him to be a military leader, or that he necessarily be of high intelligence. These are two issues that, in the minds of most people, simply go against the grain of what a Paladin can be. Maybe not should, but can.

If SoaPM states, "Paladins don't exist in my game, but I have this PClass, The Crusader, it would be all good?

Yes. To put it simply, while I think this is a decently thought-out class, it's just not representative of the Paladin as printed in the PHB. If he wishes to divide the core Paladin into multiple PrCs with unique abilities (and with his "Peasant Hero" and others, this is just what he's proposing), that's his business. Perhaps in RP terms they're even ALL known as Paladins. But a single cookie-cutter does not a Paladin make, any more than it would make sense for the Fighter, Druid, or Rogue classes to universally recieve the same benefits and pursue goals in similiar fashions.

 

[Shirt Guy John]

DAMN this is a long thread....
Now, that aside (I just read the whole thing), I think a lot of the aurguing on the last few pages of it has been concerned with very few topics, the most prominent of these being the Int requirement, and the Leadership requirement.

Personally, my idea of a Paladin works just fine with the current core class. Indeed, a Paladin is a crusader for his God. He lives for Good and Law, and seeks to stamp out evil wherever he finds it.

I do't see why a Paladin demands respect at all. Sure, he's gonna try to convert those who he feels are not "pure", but he doesn't HAVE to be good at it. The Paladin should be living only to uphold the ideals of his deity or order. I think the standard Paladin does this perfectly, and if specialization is needed, there are plenty of prestige classes. But I'm getting off topic. I don't see why a Paladin has to be smart or has to have followers. He BY NATURE accepts what he feels are the demands of his deity (he has no need to comprehend, just to carry out). He also does not need followers. I mean, sure a squire is nice, but will a Paladin really get that much use from the followers? I don't think that it would be in his nature to lead others to their deaths ('cause let's face it, level 1 warriors suck ass in a fight).

I always pictured a Paladin as a lone crusader, fighting a lonely battle against all that is evil.

And Paladins DO NOT have to be smart (yes, I'm repeating myself. I know, I know...). I had the honor of playing an unintelligent paladin for a short period of time, and I must say it was interesting. I was not designing plans or creating strategies, but I was charging into battle knowing that I was serving my deity's grand designs. Wisdom and Charisma served me better than Intelligence ever could (and some deities would rather have dumb, blindly-loyal crusaders anyhow. I know I would if I were a deity. 'Course, I'm not LG...)

And as you based this prestige class off of the blackguard, I wanna bring him up for a minute. The Black Guard prestige class is constructed as a way out for fallen paladins (other classes can take it, but it is heavily geared towards this intention). It allows class level conversion (something almost unheard of in D&D) and even bonus abilities for being an ex-paladin.

Personally, I would rather see a character fall from their high and mighty possition than see someone strive for it. For me and the people I play with, that would allow for some very interesting role-playing.

But, If I haven't said it before, all of this is based on my own personal beliefs about what a Paladin is supposed to be.

I just know I'm gonna regret posting on this thread....

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Lily Inverse.

Originally posted by Lily Inverse
...re-read Leadership. Nothing about dismissing your followers there. Since it's intended to replace the Fighter trait from 1st and 2nd Editions, where they would simply "show up" once you achieved a certain level…

I have read the Leadership feat... thoroughly. Nothing there about any 2nd edition fighter traits, no matter what you think was "intended". I swear, 3rd edition role-playing is much better served by disregarding 2nd edition material wholesale.

As for the delay times involved in attracting followers, I am aware of them as well. My characters often fast forward through months at a time. They love using their craft feats and skills. I make a point of sustaining "medieval time passage" in my adventures (meaning a slower but more realistic pace of life). Twenty levels of level progression does not happen to my characters in the space of an action-packed month.

Originally posted by Lily Inverse
Moreover, if you allow him to dismiss and recruit followers at will, Leadership simply becomes a Munchkin's way of solving problems.

I see nothing even remotely munchkin driven about sharing experience points with 28 other people. Being willing to share your experience points with 28 other people is quite admirable in my opinion (from a meta-gaming perspective).

Originally posted by Lily Inverse
The "But something else might happen here" argument doesn't cut it, because you've heard about some place something else that HAS happened and needs redress, and you're sitting on your laurels doing nothing about it.

Now I know you're doing little more than skimming my posts. I went on to say that the paladin would stick around long enough to form a self-sustaining militia or reinforce a stronghold. That is most certainly not "waiting to see what else happens".

Originally posted by Lily Inverse
I told you to do the math of a 25 point character. Doesn't work, does it?

Don't be deliberately silly Lily. Of course it works.
Strength 14 (6 points), Dexterity 10 (2 points), Constitution 10 (2 points), Intelligence 12 (4 points), Wisdom 13 (5 points), Charisma 14 (6 points).

Not great statistics, but with 25 points characters aren't predispositioned to be legendary. That's why they're only given 25 points! Sheesh, I would have thought that was a given. But to flatly say that my paladin prestige class isn't possible with 25 points is just plain wrong. That said, for you to condemn characters into mediocrity, simply because they're attribute totals equal the Default Array, is very short sighted of you.

"That paladin was only made with 25 attribute points. Yeah, he'll never amount to anything."

Legendary character status is more often defined by role-playing than statistics Lily. Shame on you!

Originally posted by Lily Inverse
What they are NOT is leaders of men.

Like I said, self-serving. And once again, a paladin can dismiss their army very easily, see my point above, or convert them into another ongoing sedentary purpose.

Originally posted by Lily Inverse
I have NEVER seen a published 20th level character with a stat less than a 12 in any handbook.

You and the Forgotten Realms equate statistics with survivability power. I equate survivability power with good resourceful role-playing.

-----

Al.

Not to give you the shorthand reply again, but Lily did respond to my post first. See my answer to her similar query above. You are both fixated on high statistics translating into survivability power. My experience has shown me that attribute scores play a very small role in character survivability. Clever role-playing is almost always the key to longevity.

Originally posted by Al
Your defense, that a high Intelligence is demanded to garner respect only carries so much weight...

Come on Al, work with me here. I haven't said this at all. What did I really say...?

Originally posted by Al
Just because one is high level it does not automatically make one inspirational: particularly with a 1 in charisma.

Twenty-four followers then, it makes no difference. A charisma of 1 does not make one inspirational. But a Charisma of 1 *and* the Leadership feat does change that. It means that despite the masticating habits of such a paladin, there is still *something* about the character which draws other people to their side; enough to eventually rally at least 24 followers apparently. Leadership wouldn't be a *feat* otherwise (in the truest sense of the word).

Lastly, thank you for your general open mindedness on this thread. I have never believed that you were anti-SoaPM, but the sentiment is nonetheless appreciated. Your points about delegating different responsibilities for followers is indeed a good one.

As for Improved Disarm, if I did replace it, Sunder would not be my choice. I'd avoid Sunder simply because that is already a prerequisite feat for blackguards, and I want paladins to contrast them on both design and philosophical levels.

-----

Lily Inverse.

Originally posted by Lily Inverse
Note that there is nothing in particular about a Paladin that requires him to be a military leader.

And there is nothing particular in my paladin prestige class that states as much either. While I have discussed using the Leadership feat to rally a militia, that is far from the only purpose followers can serve (as Al recently pointed out).

As for not breaking the mold of blackguards, that too is by design. My paladin prestige class was created to directly balance against blackguards. You state the obvious Lily, much as another poster did earlier (unless that poster was also you).

-----

Shirt Guy John.

I have actually rewritten the fallen paladin rules as well (to dove-tail with a paladin prestige class, rather than a paladin character class).

Table 2-12: Fallen Paladin Blackguard abilities
Paladin Extra
Levels / Abilities
1 Lay on hands. Once per day, the blackguard can cure themselves of damage equal to their Charisma bonus times their blackguard level. The blackguard can only cure themselves or their fiendish servant with this spell-like ability.
2-3 Smite good once per day. (This in addition to the ability granted to all blackguards at 2nd level, so that a fallen paladin blackguard can smite good a total of twice per day.)
4-5 Sneak attack damage increased by +1d6.
6-7 Fiendish summoning. Once per day, the blackguard can use a summon monster I spell to call forth an evil creature. For this spell, the caster level is double the blackguard's class level.
8-9 Undead companion. In addition to the fiendish servant, the blackguard gains (at 5th level) a skeleton or zombie of equal size to themselves as a companion. This companion cannot be turned or rebuked by another and gains all special bonuses as a fiendish servant when the blackguard gains levels.
10 Favored of the dark deities. Fallen paladins of this stature combine their former paladin levels to their blackguard levels for the purposes of calculating the benefits of lay on hands and smite good.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Don't be deliberately silly Lily. Of course it works.
Strength 14 (6 points), Dexterity 10 (2 points), Constitution 10 (2 points), Intelligence 12 (4 points), Wisdom 13 (5 points), Charisma 14 (6 points).

Not great statistics, but with 25 points characters aren't predispositioned to be legendary. That's why they're only given 25 points! Sheesh, I would have thought that was a given. But to flatly say that my paladin prestige class isn't possible with 25 points is just plain wrong. That said, for you to condemn characters into mediocrity, simply because they're attribute totals equal the Default Array, is very short sighted of you.

"That paladin was only made with 25 attribute points. Yeah, he'll never amount to anything."

Legendary character status is more often defined by role-playing than statistics Lily. Shame on you!

It's quite true that 25 point characters aren't predisposed to be legendary, but that doesn't change the fact that the stat disposition required by the prerequisites of this prestige class is a very marginal construction. In nearly any combat encounter, a standard (25 points distributed as per DMG NPCs) fighter, barbarian, or PHB paladin will perform significantly better than this character. For that matter, any reasonably constructed blackguard will wipe the floor with him in single combat. Your average wizard (14 con) with a toad familiar will have as many hit points.

Further comparison to the blackguard is also warranted. This paladin prestige class mirrors the standard blackguard closely, but, as someone else pointed out, the blackguard is not really a standard class. It seems balanced on the assumption that the blackguard was once a paladin and gains the bonusses given to ex-paladin blackguards.

As to the other arguments, they seem to have gone round and round but aren't going anywhere. The class definitely won't break any campaign it's dropped into. It's not "The Quintissential Paladin" though. It excludes a number of examples of the paladin archetype. Furthermore, it is not a very effective way to realize the archetypes it does intend to portray. Although there's no danger that this class will break games, there's also little likelihood that it will be used. I would expect that players who would otherwise play paladins (and play them well) will play Fighter/Clerics, Fighter/Hospitallers, Warpriests, Templars, or just plain fighters and clerics instead in an effort to remain useful to the rest of the party.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

And yet it's strange how I keep getting asked for the PDF of this prestige class via Email.



That said, I have been playing with an alternate version of the quintessential paladin, ramped up somewhat in mechanical power level. Keep in mind I would be making similar changes to the blackguard.

More on that alterate version later...

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Alternate Version 1.0.

Changed the Leadership prerequisite to Improved Trip.
Increased the number of times a paladin can smite evil per day.
Added Leadership to the prestige class abilities (with stacking potential).

*

INSERT
Page 86 of the DUNGEON MASTER's Guide, between the loremaster and the shadowdancer.

Paladin
Every description in the Player's Handbook between pages 41 and 44 holds sway, except where indicated below.

No one ever chooses to be a paladin. Becoming a paladin is answering a call, accepting one's destiny. The compassion to pursue good, the will to uphold law, and the power to defeat evil-these are the three weapons of the paladin. Few have the purity and devotion that it takes to walk the paladin's path, but those few are rewarded with the power to protect, to heal, and to smite. In a land of scheming wizards, unholy priests, bloodthirsty dragons, and infernal fiends, the paladin is the final hope that cannot be extinguished.
The paladin takes their adventures seriously and have a penchant for referring to them as "quests". Even a mundane mission is, in the heart of the paladin, a personal test-an opportunity to demonstrate bravery, to develop martial skills, to learn tactics, and to find ways of doing good. Clerics, monks, rangers, and warriors primarily answer the call of paladinhood, while ex-bards, rogues, sorcerers, and wizards are more inclined towards artifice and subterfuge than paladins generally embrace. Berserkers and druids rarely become paladins, as doing so contradicts the instinctive nature of who they are.
As NPCs, paladins really come into their own when leading mighty campaigns against evil, or setting off on their own to further the causes of good and law. They work well with good and lawful clerics, and they appreciate working with those who are brave, honest, and committed to good. While they cannot abide evil acts by their companions, they are otherwise willing to work with a variety of people quite different from themselves. All paladins, regardless of background, recognize in each other an eternal bond that transcends culture, race, and even religion.

Hit Die: d10.

Requirements
To qualify to become a paladin, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: Lawful good.
Base Attack Bonus: +6.
Concentration or Knowledge (religion): 2 ranks.
Ride: 5 ranks.
Feats: Improved Disarm, Improved Trip.
Special: The paladin must have made peaceful contact with a good outsider from whom they successfully preformed a quest and were deemed worthy of divine blessing.

Class Skills
All of the following are class features of the paladin prestige class.
The paladin's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Ride (Dex). See chapter 4: Skills for skill descriptions.

Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Table 2-16: The Paladin
Class-Base-Fort-Refl-Will
Level-Attk-Save-Save-Save-Special
1st---+1---+2---+0---+0---Detect evil, divine health,
--------------------------lay on hands
2nd---+2---+3---+0---+0---Divine grace, smite evil 1/day
3rd---+3---+3---+1---+1---Aura of courage, turn undead
4th---+4---+4---+1---+1---Remove disease 1/week
5th---+5---+4---+1---+1---Special mount, smite evil 2/day
6th---+6---+5---+2---+2---Honorable combat
7th---+7---+5---+2---+2---Remove disease 2/week
8th---+8---+6---+2---+2---Smite evil 3/day
9th---+9---+6---+3---+3---Leadership
10th--+10--+7---+3---+3---Remove disease 3/week

Table 2-16: The Paladin (continued)
Spells per Day
Class
Level-1st-2nd-3rd-4th
1st---0
2nd---1
3rd---1---0
4th---1---1
5th---1---1---0
6th---1---1---1
7th---2---1---1---0
8th---2---2---1---1
9th---2---2---2---1
10th--2---2---2---2

Class Features
Spells: Beginning at 1st level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells. To cast a spell, the paladin must have an Wisdom score of at least 10 + the spell's level, so a paladin with an Wisdom of 10 or lower cannot cast these spells. Paladin bonus spells are based on Wisdom, and saving throws against these spells have a DC of 10 + spell level + the paladin's Wisdom modifier (if any). When the paladin gets 0 spells of a given level, such as 0 1st level spells at 1st level, the paladin gets only bonus spells. (A paladin without a bonus spell for that level cannot yet cast a spell of that level.) The paladin's spell list appears below. A paladin has access to any spell on the list and can freely choose which to prepare, just like a cleric. A paladin prepares and casts spells just like a cleric does (though the paladin cannot spontaneously cast cure spells).
Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, a paladin applies their Charisma modifier (if positive) as a bonus to all saving throws.
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin of 2nd level or higher can attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. The paladin adds their Charisma modifier (if positive) to their attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level (e.g., an 5th level paladin armed with a longsword would deal 1d8+5 points of damage, plus any additional bonuses for high Strength or magical effects that normally apply. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect but is still used up for that day. Paladins can use this ability more often as they advance in levels (twice pre day at 5th level and thrice per day at 8th level).
Aura of Courage (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Allies within 10 feet of the paladin gain a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects.
Remove Disease (Sp): Beginning at 4th level, a paladin can remove disease, as the spell remove disease, once per week. Paladins can use this ability more often as they advance in levels (twice per week at 7th level and three times per week at 10th level).
Honorable Combat (Su): Once per day, a paladin of 6th level or higher can enter into single combat against a chosen target. Third parties may not directly or indirectly assist either combatant unless they succeed in making a Willpower saving throw each round (DC 20 + the paladin's prestige class level + the paladins Charisma modifier). Failing this save prevents third parties from taking any action for 1 round (but allows them to defend themselves normally) as per the spell daze. Creatures immune to mind-influencing effects are not affected by this ability. Honorable combat may be dispelled at will by the paladin, but the effect otherwise lasts until one of the two primary combatants is defeated or flees (placing at least one mile between the combatants). Activating honorable combat is a standard action.
Leadership (Ex): At 9th level, the paladin gains the Leadership feat. If the paladin has already chosen the Leadership feat, then the two feats stack, allowing the paladin to add their Charisma modifier to their Leadership score twice.

Paladin Spell List
Paladins choose their spells from the following list:
1st level-bless, bless weapon, cure light wounds, detect poison, detect undead, divine favor, endure elements, magic weapon, protection against evil, read magic, resistance, virtue.
2nd level-aid, bull's strength, cure moderate wounds, daylight, delay poison, remove paralysis, resist elements, shield other.
3rd level-cure serious wounds, discern lies, dispel magic, greater magical weapon, heal mount, magic circle against evil, prayer, remove blindness/deafness.
4th level-cure critical wounds, death ward, dispel evil, freedom of movement, holy sword, neutralize poison.

SPECIAL MOUNT
Table 2-17: Special Mounts
Paladin
Character--Bonus-Natural-Str
Level------HD----Armor---Adj.-Int-Special
12 or less-+2 HD-+1------+1---6---Empathic link, improved evasion,
----------------------------------share saving throws, share spells
13-15------+4 HD-+3------+2---7---Command creatures of its kind,
----------------------------------speak with paladin
16-18------+6 HD-+5------+3---8---Blood bond
19-20------+8 HD-+7------+4---9---Spell resistance

Paladin Character Level: The character level of the paladin (paladin levels plus all other class levels).

Blood Bond: The mount gains a +2 bonus to attacks, checks, and saves if it witnesses the paladin threatened or harmed. This bonus lasts as long as the threat us immediate and apparent.)

 

[Shirt Guy John]

Son of a P., I respect your consistency and dedication (you would make a fine low-int Paladin in my book.... now we just gotta figure out your Charisma and Wisdom, and we'll be set ), but let me just say that that class *points up* just bothers me for some reason. Let me line it up against the Blackguard for us. Shall we?

Paladin PrC
---------------------
*Detect Evil
*Divine Health
*Lay on Hands
*Divine Grace
*Smite Evil 3/day
*Aura of courage
*Turn Undead
*Remove Disease 3/week
*Special Mount
*Honorable Combat
*Leadership
*Spells: 1x2, 2x2, 3x2, 4x2

Black Guard PrC
-----------------------
*Detect Good
*Poison Use
*Dark Blessing
*Smite Good
*Command Undead
*Aura of Dispair
*Sneak Attack +3d6
*Spells: 1x2, 2x2, 3x2, 4x1

Umm..... that isn't what I expected.... It looks to me like the Paladin PrC has more abilities for the same requirements.... except that the Black Guard has to also take into account the Fallen Paladin aspect, too... *shrug* I don't know anymore.

How 'bout another comparison?

Paladin Core Class (after 10 levels)
---------------------------------------------
*Detect Evil
*Divine Grace
*Lay on Hands
*Divine Health
*Aura of Courage
*Smite Evil
*Remove Disease 3/week
*Turn undead
*Special Mount (Which is on par with the other mounts, though it gains abilities faster)
*Spells: 1x1, 2x1

well damn.... so there goes what I was gonna argue for... or maybe not....

Look, I know what you're tryin' to do SoaPM (hehe.... soap), but wouldn't it just be easier to make entry into the Paladin's based on completely in-game events, like the quest and "proving himself" and then allow him/her to multi-class into the normal Paladin without an experience penalty?

 

[reapersaurus]

soapm - could you include the Turn Undead ability description in your PrC?

Good idea with the more smites per day.
I advocate more smites per day for core-class paladins.

once a day is too weak.
Especially since your PrC paladin is not doing much extra damage with his smites....

I think the Extra Smiting feat should compare with Extra Rage.
2 more smites per feat.

 

[Al]

Bah! You submit to their demands for no Leadership and keep Improved Disarm- and then exacerbate it by adding another Expertise chain feat .

Seriously though, I still hold to my same points about Intelligence, but I can see that rephrasing my old posts is futile for both of us.

Not to give you the shorthand reply again, but Lily did respond to my post first. See my answer to her similar query above. You are both fixated on high statistics translating into survivability power. My experience has shown me that attribute scores play a very small role in character survivability. Clever role-playing is almost always the key to longevity.

A truer word was not spoken. On those occasions when I do play, I tend to have a longer life expectancy than my fellows: and usually not due to having the best stats (though usually playing backline characters helps ).

However, I still have one fundamental question you have not addressed. Answer it, and I feel it would be futile to continue my objection:

WHY is Intelligence a requirement and Str/Wis/Cha not?

It is a simple question: a simple answer should do.

And Lily-

(IMO, very odd group to be constantly prepared for a war, you'd think they'd want to attract as little attention as possible, what with all that research and spelunking they must do)

Almost pascifistic. Very unlikely to attract a retinue of following warriors going everywhere

I'll let you in on a secret. Followers do not *have* to be warriors. The former could do with commoners to carry their baggage and for experts to advise them in particular fields; the latter could do with expert (or even commoner) healers or similar.
And whilst I agree with your fundamental points about Leadership, your line of attack (citing individual examples from FR) is anecdotal and carries little weight, especially as it is further flawed.