The (quintessential) paladin prestige class

[Ridley's Cohort]

The addition of Honorable Combat, Leadership, and extra Smites does beef up this PrC nicely.

I am afraid I just can't agree with those feat prereqs. I just don't think they fit well. Maybe disarm. But trip?!? Gaining the blessing of an outsider seems like a pretty big prereq in itself.

Honorable Combat is a cool ability. Not used carefully it is a sure way to die.

BTW, Honorable Combat can be used defensively...

Party corners the Evil Wizard and his Hunchback.

"You will pay for all the foul evil and wickedness you have helped bring into this world. I challenge you . . . Hunchback!"

Paladin casually beats up the Hunchback while the rest of the party has to deal with the Evil Wizard.

 

[apsuman]

"Armed and/or summoned creatures, creatures immune to mind-influencing effects, cohorts, companions, familiars, special mounts, and servants ignore the effects of honorable combat but can be attacked normally by third parties."

I would exclude armed creatures, companions, and servants from being exempted from the effect of Honorable combat. Did that make any sense? In other words, armed creatures, companions and servants are all effected by Honorable combat just the way joe schmoe is effected.

Basically, only the combatants get to slug it out. Familiars, special mounts and animal companions (is that what SOAPM meant?) are extentions of a character. Summoned creatures also, being under the influence of one of the combatants, are an extention of the combatant. Creatures charmed by one of the combatants are part of the combatant. And mindless creatures (indead, golems, etc. ) just can not perceive of the effect.

I am in the air about the cohort, but I think I would exlcude them as well, lest you have a wizard cohort aiding you but his two familars can not (or should they be able to?).

At least that is what I was thinking.

g!

 

[Shirt Guy John]

To settle the matter of a smart Paladin once and for all, I thought that it would be proper to create a mid-level core race/core class paladin with a VERY LOW intelligence and describe his person to you to the best of my ability. I now present to you all, the one, the only, Muulg!

Muulg, Male Half-Orc Paladin 9
===============================
[32-point. Sorry, it's what I use]
Stat ##(Points used)
Str 18(6, + 2 level increases), Dex 12(4), Con 14(6),
Int 6(0), Wis 14(6), Cha 14(10)

Hmm... I was gonna go into all the stats and stuff, but I realize that this would be completely pointless, so I'll go strait to the interview:


------------------------------------------------
SGJ: Welcome Muulg.

Muulg: *grunts acknowledgment*

SGJ: You are here tonight to dispell any rumors that a paladin cannot succesfully function when... dumb.

Muulg: I'm not dumb. Muulg have a learning disorder.

SGJ: Really? That's quite interesting. What's the name of this disorder.

Muulg: I can't not learn much stuff.

SGJ: Uh-huh. So, how did you end up being a Paladin of Pelor?

Muulg: My mother was a human. She was captured by the Bad Orcs who had their way with her. She was rescued by a Paladin. When I was born't, she gave me to the Order to raise as a true believer.

SGJ: Really? So you didn't choose to be a Paladin?
Muulg: Of course Muulg chose to be a knight! Muulg is no fool! The Great and Mighty Pelor had chosen Muulg to do His bidding, so Muulg accepted the offer.

SGJ: But weren't you just brainwashed by the continuous influence of the Church?

Muulg: *stares blankly* -blink-

SGJ: Right, so onto question number... what is this, anyhow?

Muulg: *holds up two fingers*

SGJ: Thanks. Onto question number two. How has your "Learning Disorder" hampered your advancement as a Paladin?

Muulg: *Thinking very hard* Well, Muulg is not as bright as other squires, so it took me longer to learn things. I'm still not as good at the others at talkin' 'bout politics, but I can ride my horse, Grey-Wind, pretty good.

SGJ: How has your reduced intelect hampered what you can do to uphold Good and Law?

Muulg: *Thinking hard again* Muulg is not sent to pursuade others. Muulg is not good with politics, but I am good warrior.

SGJ: Is that all that you do? Fight?

Muulg: No. I fight against bad things, yeah, but Muulg also helps with the church. I builds stuff and help with heavy labor when needed.

SGJ: Are you responsible for converting many peoples to what your order refers to as the Righteous Ways?

Muulg: *Happily* Oh yeah! Muulg gets lots of people to respect me. I try really hard at everything, and Muulg can do a lot! Lots of the Unworthy come to Muulg, and they say to me, "Wow! Are all Knights as dedicated as you?" and I says "No. All Righteous are this dedicated, because they will join the Shining God in eternal Bliss when they pass on. The Lord of Light rewards those who try hard and do their best, so long as they don't stray from their path." The Unworthy listen to Muulg, too, 'cause they feels like I'm just like one of them.

SGJ: Would you say that you have a commanding presence?

Muulg: Lot's of people's wanna join with Muulg. My squire, a human boy called Alaran, he gives Muulg advice and helps with the people stuff. Muulg follows the One Law of Good: Treat others better than yourself.

SGJ: Aren't there more than twenty laws that the Order must follow?

Muulg: *shrugs* They only taught me the One Rule. They said that was all I would need to know.

SGJ: That's great. I was wondering, what keeps you from becoming "bad"?

Muulg: (with a look of horror on his face) Muulg will NEVER become bad! The Knights said to Muulg that the Bad and the Unworthy never see the tower of the Shining Lord. They never gets to be eternally happy! Instead, they go down to the Hells and burn forever. I don't wanna' burn forever.

SGJ: Okay, and that leads me to my next question, how do you figure out who is Bad?

Muulg: The Great Shining Lord Pelor shows Muulg who is bad. All I has to do is concentrate hard, and I see who's Bad and who's not.

SGJ: Couldn't someone trick you and make a Righteous person look Bad?

Muulg: Muulg doesn't decide who is Bad. Muulg can be tricked, but Pelor can never be tricked. Muulg sees who Pelor says are Bad, and I destroy them.

SGJ: Well thank you for coming onto this thread tonight, Muulg. Hopefully this interview has shown a little bit about... uh... un-intelligent Paladins to all of the non-believers out there.

Muulg: *apears to be concentrating*

SGJ: Hey, what are you doing? Stop that!

Muulg: (face contorting with anger) You're Bad! Pelor tells Muulg to smash you! *draws his sword*

SGJ: Now wait a minute, Muulg. Sure I'm evil, but should you be killing me on a public thread? I mean, I created you dammit!

Muulg: (Obviously meticulously rehearsed) By the decree of the Shining God Pelor, I, Muulg, shall dispatch you to the Hells from which you came!

SGJ: *Screams, but is cut short... literally. Muulg cleans his sword on his tunic and turns towards the rest of the thread-posters*

Muulg: *concentrates* You're all Bad! By the Light of Pelor, I will smash you! *charges at the nearest person, with no care for himself*
------------------------------------------------

well, that was sure fun to write. Even if it does nothing to strengthen anyone's points, I hope you all find that interesting (and I don't think that that constitutes a thread-jacking since it's still on topic... sorta). Muulg will be free to answer any questions, once he has slsughtered all of us. And with that, RUN! Muulg is coming for you!

 

[reapersaurus]

i'm sorry, but Muulg is really fun.
While I don't believe that a 3 INT anything is a playable character, I would believe Muulg as a 6 INT dunder-paladin.

 

[Shirt Guy John]

That's very true... I fixed him now. I had originally had him at Int 6, but that hit far too close to home.... (yes, I played a paladin with an int of 6).

He's better now, but still mad that SoaP Man doesn't think he could make a Paladin...

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Shirt Guy John.

I *know* the alternate paladin and blackguard do not match up yet. Remember my post to that effect...?

Keep in mind I would be making similar changes to the blackguard.

That said, in response to your Muulg interview, if ever I wavered (even a little bit) on the point that paladins should have an Intelligence prerequisite, my determination to give them one now is decatupled.



-----

Al.

I have given in to no such demands. My alternate paladin is just that. An *alternate* paladin. Think of it as me "playing with ideas". Far from being written in PDF concrete.

That said, my reason for removing the Leadership feat as a prerequisite was to acknowledge that serving the greater good as a paladin can be done in many ways, not just as a leader of men, but also as a motivated individual. This opens the paladin prestige class to far more role-playing styles than just "leadership" alone.

I compromised with myself by allowing paladins who *do* choose the Leadership feat beforehand to stack with the Leadership feat earned at 9th level.

Originally posted by Al
WHY is Intelligence a requirement and Str/Wis/Cha not?

It is a simple question: a simple answer should do.

And you have already gotten your simple answer. Multiple times. I'll be honest now Al... the fact that my reasons do not live up to your standards no longer troubles me. Sorry.

-----

Ridley's Cohort.

As for the inclusion of Improved Trip, I see it as yet another potentially non-lethal style of combat (that can also be exceedingly deadly if the paladin so chooses).

You may notice the parallel with blackguards as well. Blackguards have Great Cleave and Sunder as prestige class prerequisites (no mention of Power Attack; the requirement of both those feats). In the same way, alternate paladins now have Improved Disarm and Improved Trip as prestige class prerequisites (with no mention of Expertise; the requirement of both those feats).

 

[Lily Inverse]

All right, one quick suggestion and then I really am out of this thread. Just a quick revision to the list of bonus Blackgurad abilities for Paladin levels.


1 Lay on hands. Once per day, the blackguard can cure themselves of damage equal to their Charisma bonus times their blackguard level. The blackguard can only cure themselves or their fiendish servant with this spell-like ability.
2 Smite good once per day. (This in addition to the ability granted to all blackguards at 2nd level, so that a fallen paladin blackguard can smite good a total of twice per day.)
3 Sneak attack damage increased by +1d6.
4 Fiendish summoning. Once per day, the blackguard can use a summon monster I spell to call forth an evil creature. For this spell, the caster level is double the blackguard's class level.
5 Undead companion. In addition to the fiendish servant, the blackguard gains (at 5th level) a skeleton or zombie of equal size to themselves as a companion. This companion cannot be turned or rebuked by another and gains all special bonuses as a fiendish servant when the blackguard gains levels.
6 Favored of the dark deities. Fallen paladins of this stature combine their former paladin levels to their blackguard levels for the purposes of calculating the benefits of lay on hands and smite good.

My only real reason for this suggestion is the fact that, with only ten possible Paladin levelsyou can't have a particularly high Blackguard level and get all the abilities on the list. This one's really just a suggestion.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

I would exclude armed creatures, companions, and servants from being exempted from the effect of Honorable combat. Did that make any sense?

Yes it did, but in retrospect, the idea behind honorable combat is lost if *anyone* or *anything* is allowed to participate in the combat except the paladin and their chosen target. I have since rewritten the ability to exclude anyone except creatures that are immune to mind-influencing effects. That way the combat is ensured to be "honorable".

 

[Jerrid Al-Kundo]

That said, in response to your Muulg interview, if ever I wavered (even a little bit) on the point that paladins should have an Intelligence prerequisite, my determination to give them one now is decatupled.

ROFL!!!

That said, my reason for removing the Leadership feat as a prerequisite was to acknowledge that serving the greater good as a paladin can be done in many ways, not just as a leader of men, but also as a motivated individual. This opens the paladin prestige class to far more role-playing styles than just "leadership" alone.

Bah! Should have made a Questor PClass or some such...

And after all that huff'n'puff with Ms. Inverse.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Bloody hellions!

It's like nobody knows what an alternate version is. When I make an alternate version of *anything* I do so to examine the "possibility" of other options... even as a process of elimination. It's the equivalent of asking myself...

"Is this what I really want? I don't know. Let's take a look."

Making an alternate version is a great way to stand back, look at the big picture, and be objective, rather than simply shutting out contrary opinions.

Lily Inverse made a good point. Not all paladins will take to being leaders. That said, it is still my wholehearted belief that the role of "leader" will be foist on paladins eventually, whether they like or not (and frequently because they don't). The most natural leaders are almost always people who never sought out that role in the first place, but rather had it pushed on them because of their example-by-action standards.

Therefore, successful paladins (I.E. paladins of 9th level) who have presumably become living examples of how to rise up against evil, are granted the Leadership feat for free. If they have already chosen that feat, the effects stack, allowing paladins to add their Charisma score to their Leadership score twice.

I feel this compromise incorporates Lily's well made point, without losing the Leadership quality of paladins that I was essentially going for. Guys, this thread isn't about winning or losing an argument for me. It's about arriving at the best ideas. That's why I posted this prestige class on a public message board in the first place...

That said, I bring you the latest version. I think it's pretty dead on the quintessential paladin mark.

I especially like the new Honorable Combat rules.