D&D General The Rakshasa and Genie Problem

[Mordhau]

I dunno if I entirely agree with that. I think they fit more into either the Greek daimon or Roman genius loci concepts. That is, genies bound to objects are real dang close to the idea of the "spirit of a place," just swapping "place" for "object." And daimones, to the ancient Greeks, were...spirits of any kind, regardless of their nature; what we call "demons" today would have been called kakodaimones then, specifically evil spirits, to be contrasted against agathodaimones, overtly good spirits.

So you could quite easily shift them in the direction of Greco-Roman stuff instead. Particularly since you could leverage the tale of Pandora's urn for the idea of powers (evil and good) being trapped inside vessels of various kinds. Perhaps call them "pandorians" or the like.

I think in broad terms these are still basically the same thing.

What are brownies if not spirits of place?

You can certainly divide up a lot of these things into different types of things. So that Fey lords are different from spirits of place.

But this wouldn't be dividing things up by culture of origin, but rather by function.

The main distinct feature of D&D genies is their tie to specific elements, but the problem with leaning into this I think is think is that it's the least interesting thing about them (and elementals without a specific cultural origin already exist and are pretty boring.)

 

[Helldritch]

And yet, there was an experience (multiple ones in fact). What gives you the right - what gives anyone the right, actually - to think that he can act as a proxy for people he has not ever met, whose culture he does not even know, just on the basis that he thinks - without the slightest evidence of it - that they might be offended by what OTHER people are doing when playing their personal games ?

Moreover, since as far as I know this is still a forum that is not reserved to Americans (but if it is, please say it clearly), what gives anyone the right to impose AMERICAN "CULTURE" constraints on other people using these forums ? Or on people playing the D&D game in general ?

This is actually way worse than cultural appropriation, this is cultural force-feeding. It is, simply, discrimination. And, I do believe, in violation of this site's policy.

Seen from another angle, it's actually much worse, it's cultural SUPPRESSION. Some people seem to be so afraid of offending people of other cultures that they prefer to totally suppress any mention of that culture. They still want to leech a minimum for the culture (unless someone now wants to completely suppress rakshasa and genies including their names, but then please also suppress any French and European sounding names from all D&D books, as it offends me personally to see them used in such a context), but they actually deny all these cultures a representation in D&D ?

Who elected anyone here "a representant of all the rest of the world's cultures" in charge of deciding which part of the culture can be leached and which part needs to be suppressed ? As far as I know, NO ONE here or anywhere has that right. Let these people speak for themselves, they certainly have not elected anyone here to be their spokesperson.

And I might not have conducted a general survey, but at least I have spoken to some about exactly that topic, and they found it great to hear that their culture was known and cherished. And you want to suppress that in the name of american "culture"? This is unacceptable, intolerably arrogant and, if I might add, probably ****** too, because it's (no so strangely, actually) focussing on rakshasa and genies, but what about all creatures and cultures from Europe ? Did you ask the greek ? Did it you ask people from northern Europe ? Or did you assume that they consented because they are not so different ?

My views are totally different, stop worrying about depicting cultures, picture them with respect, and you will see many more positive results than suppressing them and shaming people who actually relate to these cultures.

These are exactly my thoughts. Harsher than what I would have said but still the essence is there.

What I might add is the following. As long as you or anyone else tries to borrow from a culture with respect nothing should prevent you to use it. And respect does not mean to put rose glasses on and ignore the rest. But it is also not using hate glasses and seeing only the negative. The Vistani were put in that light in the original Ravenloft and more recently in CoS.

This is what must be avoided. But borrowing from a culture should not be viewed in such a bad light. It should be acclaimed as it promotes the understanding of each other. That is the experience I have had with many cultures so far, be they First Nation people, Indian, Muslim, Asian, Chinese, German, and so many others that I have had the chance to meet, play or even simply discussing with.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

These are exactly my thoughts. Harsher than what I would have said but still the essence is there.

What I might add is the following. As long as you or anyone else tries to borrow from a culture with respect nothing should prevent you to use it. And respect does not mean to put rose glasses on and ignore the rest. But it is also not using hate glasses and seeing only the negative. The Vistani were put in that light in the original Ravenloft and more recently in CoS.

At what point did I advocate anything of the sort? At what point have I ever said literally anything other than "act respectfully and do some research"?

 

[Remathilis]

Oh no! Future RPGs will be more thought out and not just shotgun any and everything at the wall with zero thought!

First they came for racist, colonial stereotypes, then they came for the monsters weirdly orphaned from their culture due to exoticism. Then there was no one left when they came for other examples of ignorance or malice.

But that's the thing: D&D is a kitchen sink game that liberally stole from everything and anything. This is the game with Celtic priests adventuring with Shaolin monks. It's appeal is the wide selection of myths and legends used to make the game. It is a melting pot in the clearest sense of the term.

What OP is suggesting we unmix the pot. To take the monsters (and let's be frank, all the culture elements) from the various cultures and either strip them of all cultural identity OR put them back into gaming material related to that culture. Keep it all with it's origin culture and only use it when the culture is present. Everything back into it's box. This is the appropriation vs fusion argument dressed in gaming clothes. If it's ok for a non-Japanese woman to wear a kimono or similar debates.

So I say let's just break the kitchen sink up entirely and return the monsters, races, classes, etc. back to thier native cultures in unique cultural sourcebooks. Have a currated selection of things in the Core Rules (stuff that doesn't have overt cultural identity) and then put out an Egyptian book, a Norse book, a China book, an Arabia book, etc. that has all the appropriate cultural stuff in context.

And WotC would make a fortune spreading out all the stuff they previously put in the three core books across several setting books. Make sure you get the Kamigawa book in 2023, it's going to have the samurai subclass and oni returning!

 

[Helldritch]

At what point did I advocate anything of the sort? At what point have I ever said literally anything other than "act respectfully and do some research"?

I am speaking in general here. I am not pointing you or anyone else in that answer.

I am just stating that too often, taking a part of culture is seen as a bad appropriation. No matter the intention, it is bad.

I find this very disturbing where adding to our own culture should be viewed as a positive thing. It seems that no matter the intention, an author or a game will get smacked for using some part of a culture. It should not be so. And as I have stated, at some point, you can make any literary work say something totally reversed of its intention with selected quotes. That is why Ialways advocate to read something with the context and the intention (or perceived) in mind. Selecting a part is always easy.

 

[Alzrius]

This is the appropriation vs fusion argument dressed in gaming clothes.

Kind of like this guy:

 

[Crimson Longinus]

But that's the thing: D&D is a kitchen sink game that liberally stole from everything and anything. This is the game with Celtic priests adventuring with Shaolin monks. It's appeal is the wide selection of myths and legends used to make the game. It is a melting pot in the clearest sense of the term.

Sure. It just is that majority of settings are mostly (if somewhat badly) European flavoured, so it is the non-European elements that might seem tacked on and orphaned from their cultural context.

 

[Helldritch]

But that's the thing: D&D is a kitchen sink game that liberally stole from everything and anything. This is the game with Celtic priests adventuring with Shaolin monks. It's appeal is the wide selection of myths and legends used to make the game. It is a melting pot in the clearest sense of the term.

What OP is suggesting we unmix the pot. To take the monsters (and let's be frank, all the culture elements) from the various cultures and either strip them of all cultural identity OR put them back into gaming material related to that culture. Keep it all with it's origin culture and only use it when the culture is present. Everything back into it's box. This is the appropriation vs fusion argument dressed in gaming clothes. If it's ok for a non-Japanese woman to wear a kimono or similar debates.

So I say let's just break the kitchen sink up entirely and return the monsters, races, classes, etc. back to thier native cultures in unique cultural sourcebooks. Have a currated selection of things in the Core Rules (stuff that doesn't have overt cultural identity) and then put out an Egyptian book, a Norse book, a China book, an Arabia book, etc. that has all the appropriate cultural stuff in context.

And WotC would make a fortune spreading out all the stuff they previously put in the three core books across several setting books. Make sure you get the Kamigawa book in 2023, it's going to have the samurai subclass and oni returning!

Are you really serious? It is exactly because D&D is such a melting pot that it has this level of success!. This game made people more open to diverse culture and point of views than any other games or hobbies that I ever saw.

This game, unwittingly, force its players to have an open mind. In D&D a woman I as capable as any men. A minority is as respected as any other. It showed us that in the end, we are all the same and that we should cooperate. And you would want to break this apart?

 

[Remathilis]

Sure. It just is that majority of settings are mostly (if somewhat badly) European flavoured, so it is the non-European elements that might seem tacked on and orphaned from their cultural context.

The answer is more non-European elements, not removing what is there. And maybe we need better flavoring on the European elements as well.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The answer is more non-European elements, not removing what is there. And maybe we need better flavoring on the European elements as well.

Yes, sure. Not disagreeing with that.