D&D General The Rakshasa and Genie Problem

[Micah Sweet]

Pathfinder seemed to go out of there way to put a lot of monsters from around the world in their bestiaries. One spreadsheet someone had for it can be linked to from: List of Pathfinder monsters by mythological origin?

I certainly hope they included full fantasy cognates for all the cultures they pulled those monsters from...

 

[Bedrockgames]

I mean, I don't know what to tell you other than these tropes absolutely get overused in trying to depict Arab culture badly. Again, you can have an evil nation that happens to be Arab, but when it plays into the most obvious stereotypes of Arabs, it should be called out.

And I can't speak to your debates, but I've absolutely seen it all over being used as a bludgeon to attack Arab culture as well as to distract from the horrors of our own slave past. It's not hard to find these online and when you create races that are obviously coded Arab and play into these tropes, it's just bad. I mean, we can talk about the Efreet, but it's worth noting that all genies have slaves in 5E, even the canonically good-aligned ones. So it's not just a "these guys are evil" thing.

You keep asserting it is, but I am actively looking and finding very little on this. I really don't see this at all to be honest. And even where it exists (whateaboutism debates about slavery) I think it's impact is minuscule compared to stereotypes around things like terrorism. I certainly see plenty of negative stereotypes of Arabs. But evil slave traders isn't one I encounter any more than other evil slave traders. And just googling arab slave trader stereotype, or arab stereotype, it doesn't really come up so I don't see how it has a lot of cultural traction. Certainly things like violence, terrorism, fanaticism, barbarism, etc come up. And again, it seems to be a problem in the City of Brass forgotten realms supplement if it is even a problem. Otherwise it isn't something I found in the monster manual.

 

[Bedrockgames]

but it's worth noting that all genies have slaves in 5E, even the canonically good-aligned ones. So it's not just a "these guys are evil" thing.

I don't play 5E so I don't have the monster manual. I don't think this is an arab stereotype, but I do think, if you have good genies with slaves, that doesn't make senses because slavery has long been considered evil in D&D. So if they are doing it, I think it's bad from a setting design and game design point of view (and also just kind of odd to have a good society that somehow has slaves). So I probably don't share your reasoning why its bad, but I agree, it is pretty stupid.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Sure but you focus entirerly on the evil part. The Djinns are good and following your logic are depicting the Arabs as noble and a powerful force for good. In a sense, equilibrium is reached.

How about no more monocultures in the first place?

That solves a lot of problems except for those who want entire species of XP pinatas.

 

[Cadence]

I certainly hope they included full fantasy cognates for all the cultures they pulled those monsters from...

I'm trying to think of what the Northern Illinois equivalent would be for the Hodag that their cheese-head neighbors to the north have...

 

[Helldritch]

How about no more monocultures in the first place?

That solves a lot of problems except for those who want entire species of XP pinatas.

Depends on the race being playable or not.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I'm trying to think of what the Northern Illinois equivalent would be for the Hodag that their cheese-head neighbors to the north have...

I think you can bring in modern crypts and monsters to a fantasy setting. The only issue is they probably tend to blend in with all the other monsters, or its weird if you don't re-skin them (you could get a 'what is bloody mary doing in the forgotten realms reaction). Also making your own boogie men is cool (especially for urban adventures I think). For bigfoot you can probably just use the Yeti entry

 

[Justice and Rule]

You keep asserting it is, but I am actively looking and finding very little on this. I really don't see this at all to be honest. And even where it exists (whateaboutism debates about slavery) I think it's impact is minuscule compared to stereotypes around things like terrorism. I certainly see plenty of negative stereotypes of Arabs. But evil slave traders isn't one I encounter any more than other evil slave traders. And just googling arab slave trader stereotype, or arab stereotype, it doesn't really come up so I don't see how it has a lot of cultural traction. Certainly things like violence, terrorism, fanaticism, barbarism, etc come up. And again, it seems to be a problem in the City of Brass forgotten realms supplement if it is even a problem. Otherwise it isn't something I found in the monster manual.

I don't play 5E so I don't have the monster manual. I don't think this is an arab stereotype, but I do think, if you have good genies with slaves, that doesn't make senses because slavery has long been considered evil in D&D. So if they are doing it, I think it's bad from a setting design and game design point of view (and also just kind of odd to have a good society that somehow has slaves). So I probably don't share your reasoning why its bad, but I agree, it is pretty stupid.

These are linked. Again, why do you think all Genies have slaves? Why is it specifically mentioned as part of the main entry and each sub-entry? Because it's a call back to Arab culture.

If you are having trouble finding it, it's partly because it relates to the trope of Arab decadence: rich Arabs have such opulence and wealth that they own many slaves and do what they will with them. This is on full display with genies and the slavery part is absolutely something that continues on today: to give an example, the villain of the Taken movie is a Sheikh billionaire who takes on kidnapped sex slaves. It's an aspect of a greater stereotype of Arabs, which the Efreet are the worst about (because they are outright villains) but all genies play into.

 

[Remathilis]

I certainly hope they included full fantasy cognates for all the cultures they pulled those monsters from...

Well, seeing as Golarion is one massive setting that houses ALL of Pathfinder, they kinda do. They have an Asia, Arabia, Egypt, Africa, old Greek/Roman area, Norse, Celtic, and Slavic areas, plus some incorporated First Nation cultures. It's but no means perfect (it's something they have been doing a lot of backpedaling and retconning to fix) but you can't say thier genies or raksasha are the sole example of thier culture.*

*(I mean, unless you specifically limit yourself to just the core rulebook and Bestiary 1, which doesn't go into a lot of detail on the setting itself for space reasons. Still, PF2e, like 5e with the PHB, has the major human ethnicities listed, so there's that.)

 

[Voadam]

You got it wrong.
Depicting a part of the mythos of a culture does not portrait members of that culture as evil, bad or downright racist.

I presented three different ways to view Efreeti in D&D.

Are you saying nobody can reasonably look at fantasy elements and depictions and see a layer of artistic metaphor or take away any cultural messages?

I am not saying people are obligated to, I am saying I can see viewing it that way.

We are talking about a cultural mythos. It is as if in a game, you would be infering that because there are angels in the game, all christians are parangons of virtue.

I can completely see people feeling that from the cultural mythos elements in the PH the Crusading knight trope paladin linkage to LG was presenting an image of Christians as Good, pagan Celtic druids are not Good but Neutral, and pagan barbarians are Chaotic.

I can also see people reasonably looking at the PH and not feeling that way.

You are making a false association of ideas here.

If you wanted to describe Arabians in a bad way, you would simply create a culture in your game where all of the members copying that culture would be ready to go boom. That kind of thing would not only raise my eyebrows, but my ire as nothing can be further from the truth.

If you want to describe Arabs in a bad way you have a myriad of options from the overt to the subtle using a bunch of different themes. The options would not be limited to overt suicide bomber tropes, though that would be one method.

Nothing can and should prevent you to improve on your representation of the Arabic culture. But do not claim that D&D is doing something that it isn't.

I was claiming that structurally in Core D&D the most prominent Arab thing is evil Efreet.

That seems factually accurate.

You yourself pointed out that villain monsters are naturally more prominent in D&D than good monsters.

Yes, a better representation would do no harm.

I was not advocating for any change in representation.

I was explicitly saying I am fine with it as is and using them in many different ways (with cultural context or not), but I can see a basis for individuals to feel differently.

But as such, the efreeti are not representative of the arabian culture, but a simple part of their mythos. Nothing else.

I feel art can be interpreted many different ways by different individuals. There is not an objective one true wayism to follow.