D&D General The Rakshasa and Genie Problem

[Remathilis]

I feel art can be interpreted many different ways by different individuals. There is not an objective one true wayism to follow.

That's the real issue, isn't it? They are wearing the cultural garb of a people while being evil. The hobgoblins in Asian armor had the same problem. Maybe we should eliminate creatures wearing cultural garb or even just drastically reduce the art depicting said creatures.

 

[Vaalingrade]

This is where this stuff loses me. It starts to become an esoteric decoding. I can certainly see it when it is deliberate, obvious, and clearly out of bounds.

So here's the deal: racism is pervasive.

Sure there are overt racists and bigots, but the more insidious form is where it has become internalized and unconscious. People who stereotype because they think that a given people is 'just that way' or just because 'it's a trope'; who see racism and bigotry and try to rationalize it because they don't want to believe racism is anything more than straight up blackface and off color jokes.

 

[Bedrockgames]

So here's the deal: racism is pervasive.

Sure there are overt racists and bigots, but the more insidious form is where it has become internalized and unconscious. People who stereotype because they think that a given people is 'just that way' or just because 'it's a trope'; who see racism and bigotry and try to rationalize it because they don't want to believe racism is anything more than straight up blackface and off color jokes.

We are getting off topic with this and the mods have already warned us. All I can repeat here is I don't agree with this assessment of race and racism (I think this waters down the meaning of the word). I do think what you are describing points to something real, but it isn't the same as racism (and describing it as such I think leads us away from tackling the issue), and it isn't as simple or all encompassing as you describe. I understand the belief you are putting forward, I won't try to convince you of my way of thinking about it. But we do see things differently around this issue (which probably explains a lot of our disagreement). I don't think we should hash this issue over as this is clearly not territory we are supposed to be getting into in this thread (I simply responded with some clarity out of courtesy to you)

 

[Remathilis]

So here's the deal: racism is pervasive.

Sure there are overt racists and bigots, but the more insidious form is where it has become internalized and unconscious. People who stereotype because they think that a given people is 'just that way' or just because 'it's a trope'; who see racism and bigotry and try to rationalize it because they don't want to believe racism is anything more than straight up blackface and off color jokes.

If it's that pervasive, then you really have no choice but to tear it all down and start over. You can't fix a system so tainted with bandaids. You have to start back at step one and design a system that fixes the original sins and tries to mitigate ongoing or potential future damage.

For D&D, this would be a radical cultural shift. Chuck all the old settings into the dust bin. Redesign every monster from the ground up with new lore. Remove the appropriated elements held onto by legacy. You might even need to look at the core gameplay loop of killing things and taking thier stuff.

It would be a hit in the short run, but if we're serious about fixing this, don't stop at half measures.

(The opening paragraph can be taken about a lot of things, even society itself. Since this is a gaming forum, I'm limiting the discussion to that.)

 

[Vaalingrade]

If you can't tear it all down, you don't still just throw up your hands and do nothing though.

 

[Remathilis]

If you can't tear it all down, you don't still just throw up your hands and do nothing though.

I'm pretty sure the only thing I haven't suggested is "do nothing".

 

[Vaalingrade]

I'm pretty sure the only thing I haven't suggested is "do nothing".

It's the only one being endorsed under all the hyperbole.

 

[MGibster]

That's the real issue, isn't it? They are wearing the cultural garb of a people while being evil. The hobgoblins in Asian armor had the same problem. Maybe we should eliminate creatures wearing cultural garb or even just drastically reduce the art depicting said creatures.

Oh, wow. You just came up with an excellent justification for fur bikinis and loincloths in fantasy art for RPGs!

 

[Helldritch]

I presented three different ways to view Efreeti in D&D.

Are you saying nobody can reasonably look at fantasy elements and depictions and see a layer of artistic metaphor or take away any cultural messages?

I am not saying people are obligated to, I am saying I can see viewing it that way.


I can completely see people feeling that from the cultural mythos elements in the PH the Crusading knight trope paladin linkage to LG was presenting an image of Christians as Good, pagan Celtic druids are not Good but Neutral, and pagan barbarians are Chaotic.

I can also see people reasonably looking at the PH and not feeling that way.


If you want to describe Arabs in a bad way you have a myriad of options from the overt to the subtle using a bunch of different themes. The options would not be limited to overt suicide bomber tropes, though that would be one method.

I was claiming that structurally in Core D&D the most prominent Arab thing is evil Efreet.

That seems factually accurate.

You yourself pointed out that villain monsters are naturally more prominent in D&D than good monsters.


I was not advocating for any change in representation.

I was explicitly saying I am fine with it as is and using them in many different ways (with cultural context or not), but I can see a basis for individuals to feel differently.

I feel art can be interpreted many different ways by different individuals. There is not an objective one true wayism to follow.

To summarize a bit, I presented you with a fourth way of seeing the efreeti. Evil spirits unrelated to any Arabic group but related to Arabic mythos. Nothing more, nothing less. This in no ways can be compared to what had been done with the Vistani.

But if you absolutely want to see it your way, just give more place to the good counter part of the efreet, the Djinn.

 

[Justice and Rule]

This is where this stuff loses me. It starts to become an esoteric decoding. I can certainly see it when it is deliberate, obvious, and clearly out of bounds. But when you need to take a lens to media and decode, I find that is I don't know, something I have never really had a lot confidence in as a method. It always struck me as the academic equivalent of conspiracy theorizing or the academic version of looking for subliminal messages in rock music (even when I was a student I recall having this reaction to some of the stuff I had to read in say media survey courses).

If you can only see the deliberate, then you miss what a lot of minorities have to deal with. I don't know what to tell you other than you need to be able to look beyond, because if you only see the deliberate you are only seeing a small part of the picture. While you dismiss it as the equivalent of "conspiracy theorizing", your view comes across as a world where subtext doesn't exist.

I just genuinely disagree with you on this. I certainly don' think they are deliberately trying to engage a stereotype of arabs as slave traders or slave owners. See my other post. It most likely was just them drawing inspiration from the history (Genies are obviously arab inspired and my guess is the city of brass and things like used a lot of Islamic history as source material for inspiration--again not very familiar with city of brass so I can't say for sure but if you read Islamic history and arab history, slavery is there, just like if you read about Rome there is slavery, or if you read about the Antebellum South there is slavery, or even if you read the bible there is slavery). I would imagine a lot of D&D cultures modeled on ancient societies like those from the bible or the ancient mediterranean, are going to have slaves because the writers are taking from the historical source material.

I mean, you can disagree with me all you want, but your point is "I don't think they meant that", which doesn't really address the fact that it's still there. And going for the historical defense is very weak given that this is a work of fiction and we can include anything and everything we want. But the only ones where even the good race all have slaves and it is an integral feature of them. At this point this all comes off as pleading not to look at what is directly in front of us, to ignore what our eyes see rather clearly.