D&D General The Rakshasa and Genie Problem

[Bedrockgames]

Exactly. And if I may again borrow on my experience, the Ramayana is an Indian story, but I discussed it with locals at Wat Phra Kaew in Thailand, and it is already an example of cultural exchange between countries and cultures.

Speaking now to the "controlling "community: So you want to restrict the rakshasa, but to which culture are you going to attribute them ? Will you be making different sourcebooks for India and Thailand ? And for different periods of time with very different cultures ? And forbid people to mix them ? Where will that controlling spirit stop, when it's not even anyone here's right to decide anything about these cultures ? You know nothing about these people and about what they want. Nothing about how much more open minded they are, about how willing they are to share their (actual, glorious) culture that goes way more back than a pitiful 200 years. Don't assume that they are as close-minded and bigotted as you are. They are not, thankfully so.

These are all fantasy worlds anyway with only bits and pieces of cultures mixed in, and with so many other concepts and ideas added. Just be respectful, and actually, if you can, be admirative !

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I drew on the Ramakien (the thai version of Ramayana) and the art like the above in a game I made called Sertorius. My first encounter with it was through art at a Thai restaurant I worked at, which was reminiscent of the above but gold and black. And it really captured my imagination. I learned more about it and started finding artwork from temples in books. And the aesthetics were a big part of it. In my setting the ogre culture was connected to the Ramakien story (largely because of how the Ramakien was translated to me by the Thai people I knew---it was a while before I any kind of witten translation), and that ended up becoming its own thing in the setting. In my case, the ogres weren't monsters. They were a playable race in the game. So it isn't quite what he OP is talking about

 

[Helldritch]

Dude, this isn't an American-owned forum.

Characterizing it as "offense" is a dogwhistle for the alt-right. It is not about people being 'offended', and the only peple who use that word in relation to this type of debate are alt-right actors trying to poison the discussion.

This website is a northern European website. You're getting confused.

This "I'm a poor little French person being oppressed by Americans" routine of yours is getting tired. Nobody's buying it.

Ouch...
I do not think that @Lyxen is doing what you imply. And I do not think that Lyxen is an Alt-right person at all.

His point is that he is offering an other way of viewing thing that is both respectful and not derogatory to the referenced culture and that no one should speak for an entire culture.

Our experience have shown that people are usually happy that you are interested in their culture as long as it is done with respect. Where is that alt-right stand in that? And to be clear, as non-native speakers and being from a different culture, our reference for "dogwhistling" are quite different from yours. @Umbran graciously shown me what it was and I have had to make my own research to understand that concept. So do not assume the worst in somebody. It might simply be a cultural bias that we do not have.

And yes, we have a different view. Is our view so offensive as to accused of being alt-right?

 

[Helldritch]

I just....

When the choice is "nuke it from orbit" vs. "do a little research," why do people feel "nuke it from orbit" is the more reasonable option?

Am I dreaming? Is this real?

Yep, it is real. Which saddens me to end.
Can't we all agree that this game made people more opened to the various cultures than any other?

 

[Bedrockgames]

Honestly, it feels more like a critique of Eberron for lacking a fantasy Arabia, Asia, etc. I mean, Forgotten Realms at least has Zakhara, Matzica, Kara-Tur...

Maybe the lesson is that our fantasy settings should look a little more Earthlike.

I don't play Eberron. But my reaction as a player would either be 'that is a little odd we have an arabian genie and know not-Arabia" or "that's what genies look like". It may well be this wasn't a thoroughly considered design choice, or that it was a design choice that was considered, and I just don't know enough about the setting to appreciate why he did that....but for me, I just think it doesn't rise to a moral offense or something that shouldn't be permissible. If the critique is 'that just doesn't make a lot of sense to me', then I think that is fair (and again I don't know enough about Eberron to say if that is the case). If the critique is 'this is potentially a racist trope' or 'this is problematic because it equates the monster with the culture' then I don't think that is particularly compelling as a criticism (and I think this kind of criticism is moving the hobby in directions that feels a little, for a lack of a better term, Victorian).

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Honestly, it feels more like a critique of Eberron for lacking a fantasy Arabia, Asia, etc. I mean, Forgotten Realms at least has Zakhara, Matzica, Kara-Tur...

Maybe the lesson is that our fantasy settings should look a little more Earthlike.

Well, that would be a very boring lesson. I'm rather tired of settings that are just copies of Earth with some names and details changed. Sure, it can be done well, but it is so common that it has become rather tiresome.

 

[Irlo]

This point I am unclear on. The premise of the thread seemed to be that if there is an official setting that has a monster, and that monster seems culturally specific, but the culture in question isn't in the setting, that this is a problem because the monster then serves as a stand-in for that culture: and the logical conclusion of that argument would appear to be that D&D shouldn't have such monsters in such settings. Am I incorrect?

Any settings, not just official settings. And it's only a problem WHEN the monster serves as a stand-in for that culture. That's not a ineveitable consequence. We can do things to make sure that doesn't happen, for those of us who care. (Not everyone does care.) There's not one logical conclusion to the discussion, which is why the thread was started. And, really, even if that were the conclusion, the argument would not be that D&D shouldn't have such monsters in such settings. It would be that, perhaps, @AcererakTriple6 might not want to have such monsters in such settings.

 

[Helldritch]

I drew on the Ramakien (the thai version of Ramayana) and the art like the above in a game I made called Sertorius. My first encounter with it was through art at a Thai restaurant I worked at, which was reminiscent of the above but gold and black. And it really captured my imagination. I learned more about it and started finding artwork from temples in books. And the aesthetics were a big part of it. In my setting the ogre culture was connected to the Ramakien story (largely because of how the Ramakien was translated to me by the Thai people I knew---it was a while before I any kind of witten translation), and that ended up becoming its own thing in the setting. In my case, the ogres weren't monsters. They were a playable race in the game. So it isn't quite what he OP is talking about

This is exactly what we are advocating for. Respectful integration of a culture in your game. D&D gave you the basics, you expanded it and made it incredible and good. You did your research and you learned. What else could be asked for? Kudo.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don't play Eberron. But my reaction as a player would either be 'that is a little odd we have an arabian genie and know not-Arabia" or "that's what genies look like". It may well be this wasn't a thoroughly considered design choice, or that it was a design choice that was considered, and I just don't know enough about the setting to appreciate why he did that....but for me, I just think it doesn't rise to a moral offense or something that shouldn't be permissible. If the critique is 'that just doesn't make a lot of sense to me', then I think that is fair (and again I don't know enough about Eberron to say if that is the case). If the critique is 'this is potentially a racist trope' or 'this is problematic because it equates the monster with the culture' then I don't think that is particularly compelling as a criticism (and I think this kind of criticism is moving the hobby in directions that feels a little, for a lack of a better term, Victorian).

The OP didn't say they were offended, but they did say they were uncomfortable with potential implications of having a monster from a culture that is not otherwise represented in the setting. Now, I certainly don't feel that way, but it's a personal feeling and that's perfectly fine. And as far as what to do about it, the OP's suggestions for their game are the only ones I can think of either. It doesn't have to have any wider implications than that. And a little research can certainly enrich your game and your DMing skills. Hard to argue with that.

 

[Helldritch]

Well, that would be a very boring lesson. I'm rather tired of settings that are just copies of Earth with some names and details changed. Sure, it can be done well, but it is so common that it has become rather tiresome.

And yet, that is also the strength of the game. So many variations that you can always find one to your taste. Maybe it is just a D&D burnout that you are experiencing. Sometimes, going to another game system for a while is the best thing to do to renew your interest in the game.

 

[Irlo]

...but for me, I just think it doesn't rise to a moral offense or something that shouldn't be permissible.

I think most of us agree with that. (Not all of us, because this is the internet and there are some outliers on the internet.) I don't think anyone involved in this discussion has talked about moral failing or establishing parameters of what's permissable by some undefined hypothetical authority.