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The Rape of Morne [Final Update]
- Thread starter Sepulchrave II
- Start date
Sepulchrave II
Legend
Answers to Some Questions
Trying to keep to my promise to answer questions, here
In the past I've tried using various miniatures rules, but I found them too cumbersome. Presently, I must admit its largely a 'wing-it' kind of system - I react to the strategies of the PCs wrt troop deployment, but I'm no military theorist so ultimately I can only use common sense. The individual actions of players (notably Eadric - to date) are very hard to translate onto the larger scheme of things: I have a selection of 'encounters' which are possible within the larger framework of the battle, and try to extrapolate from there. Moving the story forwards is obviously the driving force, and during mass combat it becomes more of a collaborative effort.
I'm really lucky, in that my players can shift perspectives very easily - between the 'DM vs Player' paradigm and the 'We need to collaborate on what happens next' paradigm. I'm not afraid of granting them the responsibility, but they understand that I can override it and veto their decisions at any time.
That is exactly what I do: I have a map of Wyre which is around 3' x 4', with lots of different colour pins with labels attatched. Marc (Eadric's player) and I sit and look at the map and brood.
No, really, we do. Sad, isn't it? My wife thinks we're crazy.
I don't want to give too much away - suffice to say that that drama has yet to be concluded. BTW, welcome, Guardian Andy. Glad you like the story.
Usually we meet together - bear in mind that the backstory has been pretty important recently, and that the actual time devoted to players' actions in the last few posts has been quite small. If, say, Ortwin is in the spotlight, the other players usually just sit back and wait - a lot of the chopping and changing between scenes is because my notes run in the order that the players are active.
For a very long periods of single-player focus, there is always the Playstation for the others.
This is complex, because this requires the kind of cosmological absolutism that I've been trying to avoid in the game.
According to Eadric, and Orthodoxy, there are various entities dwelling in the 'Unnamed Regions' between the Abyss and Hell. They are also considered to be 'Fallen,' in the same manner as demons and devils. Presumably, they didn't make it all the way to the Abyss, when the refugees rejected the Adversary's 'alternative society.'
On a connected note, one poster mentioned the idea of 'Paradigm' and wrote about the importance in the game of Mage: The Ascension. I've never played Mage, but I think I understand the similarity. I'll present five different cosmologies below - as held by the PCs, and one NPC (in this case Shomei). They are markedly different, but not necessarily mutually exclusive. They just represent different perspectives.
Eadric’s Perspective in brief:
1. The Highest Reality is the Heaven of Oronthon.
2. The World of Men is the testing ground which has the potential to purify the Human soul for entrance into Heaven.
3. The Hells are the Abode of Devils, the Abyss of Demons, who were expelled from Heaven for rebelling. ‘Unnamed Regions’ stretch between them, where other fell entities lurk.
4. There are an infinity of Limbos in which other intelligences dwell – some good, some bad. Ultimately, however, they are all irrelevant. Phantoms to beguile the unfaithful, the resting places of Pagans and the unbaptized.
Nwm’s Perspective
The Hahio, the ‘Interwoven Green’ is everything that matters. It is Here and Now. It is the world around you. You and it are the same. Everything else is a promise of something which is not Here and Now, – why dwell on that? Look at that tree. Look at the sky. It is enough!
Other realities? Maybe, but who cares? They are not Here and Now
Uedii is a convenient term, a device through which we relate to the Green. Is she real? Look at that tree – if you need to ask, Then You are Not Looking!
Mostin’s Perspective
All Reality is a function of the consciousness which perceives it. Consciousness directs, shapes and informs the appearance of physicality. Consciousness may be directed by Will.
Will is cultivated through the practice of Magick.
There are billions of realities, all equally valid, all subject to Magickal Will. Consciousness has no limit. It is always moving, becoming something other than it is.
Will directs becoming, beyond good or evil, being or nonbeing, ignorance or gnosis.
I am an unlimited, transcendent, effulgent star. The Gods quake before me. So are you. The difference between us? – I realize it!
Shomei’s Perspective
In large part, Shomei would agree with Mostin. Note that her particular slant is oriented towards the Oronthon-Adversary duality, however.
Shomei’s Becoming, to use Mostin’s terminology, is based in antinomianism – i.e. a rejection of Oronthon’s ‘Law,’ and the adoption of the Adversarial ‘Law’ – to challenge, overcome, to strive against impossible odds, to be forced to fight again and again and again. To fight against Oronthon, and against one’s own ‘moral’ nature: for Shomei, mores are a societal impediment to becoming, or to self-transcendence, and must be destroyed. This requires enormous self-discipline.
Only when morality is obliterated, can the true nature of the individual be realized. Free of all conditioning, it soars. Not moral, not immoral, not even amoral. More like ‘Trans-moral’ or ‘Meta-moral.’
Such an individual acts from instinct, and is always correct in his or her actions.
Note that, in her youth, Shomei was baptized into the Orthodox church. Her rejection of that experience may be responsible in large part for her philosophy.
Ortwin’s Perspective
(Shrugs). Gods? Magic? I suppose they can be useful. But isn’t it really just a lot more trouble than it’s worth?
Now, her – that woman there – well…
Trying to keep to my promise to answer questions, here
In the past I've tried using various miniatures rules, but I found them too cumbersome. Presently, I must admit its largely a 'wing-it' kind of system - I react to the strategies of the PCs wrt troop deployment, but I'm no military theorist so ultimately I can only use common sense. The individual actions of players (notably Eadric - to date) are very hard to translate onto the larger scheme of things: I have a selection of 'encounters' which are possible within the larger framework of the battle, and try to extrapolate from there. Moving the story forwards is obviously the driving force, and during mass combat it becomes more of a collaborative effort.
I'm really lucky, in that my players can shift perspectives very easily - between the 'DM vs Player' paradigm and the 'We need to collaborate on what happens next' paradigm. I'm not afraid of granting them the responsibility, but they understand that I can override it and veto their decisions at any time.
That is exactly what I do: I have a map of Wyre which is around 3' x 4', with lots of different colour pins with labels attatched. Marc (Eadric's player) and I sit and look at the map and brood.
No, really, we do. Sad, isn't it? My wife thinks we're crazy.
I don't want to give too much away - suffice to say that that drama has yet to be concluded. BTW, welcome, Guardian Andy. Glad you like the story.
Usually we meet together - bear in mind that the backstory has been pretty important recently, and that the actual time devoted to players' actions in the last few posts has been quite small. If, say, Ortwin is in the spotlight, the other players usually just sit back and wait - a lot of the chopping and changing between scenes is because my notes run in the order that the players are active.
For a very long periods of single-player focus, there is always the Playstation for the others.
This is complex, because this requires the kind of cosmological absolutism that I've been trying to avoid in the game.
According to Eadric, and Orthodoxy, there are various entities dwelling in the 'Unnamed Regions' between the Abyss and Hell. They are also considered to be 'Fallen,' in the same manner as demons and devils. Presumably, they didn't make it all the way to the Abyss, when the refugees rejected the Adversary's 'alternative society.'
On a connected note, one poster mentioned the idea of 'Paradigm' and wrote about the importance in the game of Mage: The Ascension. I've never played Mage, but I think I understand the similarity. I'll present five different cosmologies below - as held by the PCs, and one NPC (in this case Shomei). They are markedly different, but not necessarily mutually exclusive. They just represent different perspectives.
Eadric’s Perspective in brief:
1. The Highest Reality is the Heaven of Oronthon.
2. The World of Men is the testing ground which has the potential to purify the Human soul for entrance into Heaven.
3. The Hells are the Abode of Devils, the Abyss of Demons, who were expelled from Heaven for rebelling. ‘Unnamed Regions’ stretch between them, where other fell entities lurk.
4. There are an infinity of Limbos in which other intelligences dwell – some good, some bad. Ultimately, however, they are all irrelevant. Phantoms to beguile the unfaithful, the resting places of Pagans and the unbaptized.
Nwm’s Perspective
The Hahio, the ‘Interwoven Green’ is everything that matters. It is Here and Now. It is the world around you. You and it are the same. Everything else is a promise of something which is not Here and Now, – why dwell on that? Look at that tree. Look at the sky. It is enough!
Other realities? Maybe, but who cares? They are not Here and Now
Uedii is a convenient term, a device through which we relate to the Green. Is she real? Look at that tree – if you need to ask, Then You are Not Looking!
Mostin’s Perspective
All Reality is a function of the consciousness which perceives it. Consciousness directs, shapes and informs the appearance of physicality. Consciousness may be directed by Will.
Will is cultivated through the practice of Magick.
There are billions of realities, all equally valid, all subject to Magickal Will. Consciousness has no limit. It is always moving, becoming something other than it is.
Will directs becoming, beyond good or evil, being or nonbeing, ignorance or gnosis.
I am an unlimited, transcendent, effulgent star. The Gods quake before me. So are you. The difference between us? – I realize it!
Shomei’s Perspective
In large part, Shomei would agree with Mostin. Note that her particular slant is oriented towards the Oronthon-Adversary duality, however.
Shomei’s Becoming, to use Mostin’s terminology, is based in antinomianism – i.e. a rejection of Oronthon’s ‘Law,’ and the adoption of the Adversarial ‘Law’ – to challenge, overcome, to strive against impossible odds, to be forced to fight again and again and again. To fight against Oronthon, and against one’s own ‘moral’ nature: for Shomei, mores are a societal impediment to becoming, or to self-transcendence, and must be destroyed. This requires enormous self-discipline.
Only when morality is obliterated, can the true nature of the individual be realized. Free of all conditioning, it soars. Not moral, not immoral, not even amoral. More like ‘Trans-moral’ or ‘Meta-moral.’
Such an individual acts from instinct, and is always correct in his or her actions.
Note that, in her youth, Shomei was baptized into the Orthodox church. Her rejection of that experience may be responsible in large part for her philosophy.
Ortwin’s Perspective
(Shrugs). Gods? Magic? I suppose they can be useful. But isn’t it really just a lot more trouble than it’s worth?
Now, her – that woman there – well…
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Nish
First Post
Re: Answers to Some Questions
Also, thanks for taking the time to answer our questions. I know the answer I got was certainly far more interesting and complex than what I was expecting. However, I still have no idea where the Yugoloths fit in your cosmology,
That's okay however, since I personally classify my world view somewhere between agnosticism and nihilism, I'm used to questions that cannot be answered and questions that have no answers.
And is it just me, or does Mostin's view borrow heavily from Aleister Crowley and Thelema? It could just be that I'm seeing a connection because Crowley's stuff is the only form of occultism that I have even a passing familiarity with. Although, all that stuff about the "Magickal Will" and effulgent star stuff sounds really similar.
And one other thing, are there any real nihilistic elements in your campaign world, either as a philosphical movement or notable NPC's that could be considered nihilists? Especially those that don't just espouse the irrelevance of moral truth as a justification for evil, but those who would genuinely just like to expose reality for the sham it is. Or something along those lines...
Sorry about all the questions, but its really your own fault for having a complex and fascinating campaign world.
For the record, that's the thing that is in my opinion greatest about your cosmology. Its so subjective and existential in nature. The various interpretations and fundamental mutability of it give it a real living, breathing kind of depth that you really don't find in fantasy. I loved Planescape for exactly this sort of thing, and you seem to put it to shame.Sepulchrave II said:
Also, thanks for taking the time to answer our questions. I know the answer I got was certainly far more interesting and complex than what I was expecting. However, I still have no idea where the Yugoloths fit in your cosmology,
That's okay however, since I personally classify my world view somewhere between agnosticism and nihilism, I'm used to questions that cannot be answered and questions that have no answers. And is it just me, or does Mostin's view borrow heavily from Aleister Crowley and Thelema? It could just be that I'm seeing a connection because Crowley's stuff is the only form of occultism that I have even a passing familiarity with. Although, all that stuff about the "Magickal Will" and effulgent star stuff sounds really similar.
And one other thing, are there any real nihilistic elements in your campaign world, either as a philosphical movement or notable NPC's that could be considered nihilists? Especially those that don't just espouse the irrelevance of moral truth as a justification for evil, but those who would genuinely just like to expose reality for the sham it is. Or something along those lines...
Sorry about all the questions, but its really your own fault for having a complex and fascinating campaign world.
tleilaxu
First Post
Sep: I'm confused about the black dragon. As far as I can tell Mesikammi summoned the spirit of the river, which took the form of a black dragon? Why not a water elemental? Also, I'm not sure who was casting the different spells. Am i missing something or is this still a mystery?
Guardian Andy
First Post
I can certainly understand that, so I just have to hang around until the truth come out...
I myself respect the attitude of Shomei.
"It is by painful experience I realize that the god is not always right. He does not help me when I am in dire need, and if this is a test of some kind, I must ask: Why must my fate be controlled by you? I would not accept your moral code, and I would enter the hell myself rather than bow before someone I do not admit. I won't back down if I do not agree to, even if you are a god. And I will fight, until you no longer control or affect me, then I will see what myself truly is."
I hope I didn't misunderstand the meaning.
However, while I respect her attitude does not mean that I hold the same perspective of her. Myself, I try not to believe something is truth until there is an undeniable proof. Belief can become prejudice, and that is what I trying to avoid.
Thanks for the answer and welcome, let's get back to the story.
I myself respect the attitude of Shomei.
"It is by painful experience I realize that the god is not always right. He does not help me when I am in dire need, and if this is a test of some kind, I must ask: Why must my fate be controlled by you? I would not accept your moral code, and I would enter the hell myself rather than bow before someone I do not admit. I won't back down if I do not agree to, even if you are a god. And I will fight, until you no longer control or affect me, then I will see what myself truly is."
I hope I didn't misunderstand the meaning.
However, while I respect her attitude does not mean that I hold the same perspective of her. Myself, I try not to believe something is truth until there is an undeniable proof. Belief can become prejudice, and that is what I trying to avoid.
Thanks for the answer and welcome, let's get back to the story.
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Cosmology
Mostin has got the Mage: The Ascension philosophy down in a nutshell, though that's likely because they work from the same sources for inspiration.
It's been a while since I said how great this story is and thanked you and your players for a wonderful read.
You make my husband/DM jealous
Mostin has got the Mage: The Ascension philosophy down in a nutshell, though that's likely because they work from the same sources for inspiration.
It's been a while since I said how great this story is and thanked you and your players for a wonderful read.
You make my husband/DM jealous
Sepulchrave II
Legend
Both Shomei and Mostin can be regarded as embracing philosophies which, in our terms, have a kind of Hermetic-Thelemic feel to them. Both wizards draw heavily on contemporary ideas about 'Left-Hand Path Magick' - Mostin's perspective is more consciousness-oriented, whereas Shomei's is more existential.
His attraction to the Far Realms is understandable in this context: they represent a reality in which consciousness is unfettered and has the potential for enormous expression: beyond even, say, Limbo. Even in Limbo, there potentiality is limited by ideas such as matter, space and time.
Shomei's ideas are Nietzschean to an extent - in that ideas of self-transcendence are understood in terms of 'self-overcoming.' The Fall (of the Devils) is more important as a mythopoeic device to Shomei than as an event which occurred at a discrete point in cosmic history. She is more concerned with the (to her) archetypal idea of 'Falling'or 'Rebellion' than the actual event itself: it is that, and the struggle of Devils, which moves her. That said, the fugue moods which Shomei experiences (she is prone to intense bouts of depression) stem from a kind of nihilistic angst. On some level, she recognizes that Devils messed up somewhere along the way.
Interestingly, Shomei has enormous respect for Nehael - someone whom she perceives as having shaken off all conditioning.
The Nenning Spirit was casting the spells. I use the Greater Nature Spirit from OA, with the difference that such spirits have no 'visible' form besides an apparent distortion effect when present in normal reality. However, they can manifest (shapechange) in any form which they please - in this case a Black Dragon.
One of the hardest things has been to decide how Mesikammi (with a 'shamanic' reality) interacts with the realities presented by, say, Wyrish Magic and Oronthonian belief.
