D&D General The rapier in D&D

[Steampunkette]

Someone in the 1700s was like "Mm... I think I'll make an old-style rapier based on 1400s German Rapiers." and then did that thing.

And that piece is now in a museum 300 years later.

This is not rocket surgery.

For the person in the 1700s to make a rapier in the style of the 1400s there had to be a rapier in the 1400s with a style to mimic.

And -specifically- a German one.

 

[Clint_L]

The history of the rapier is a lot more interesting than I realized, and I'm not being sarcastic. But that aside, this thread also has me wondering what my bridge too far is, because it sure isn't rapiers. Psionics maybe, but that seems too broad.

 

[pawsplay]

Someone in the 1700s was like "Mm... I think I'll make an old-style rapier based on 1400s German Rapiers." and then did that thing.

And that piece is now in a museum 300 years later.

This is not rocket surgery.

For the person in the 1700s to make a rapier in the style of the 1400s there had to be a rapier in the 1400s with a style to mimic.

And -specifically- a German one.

No, it just requires the "private donor" to donate a weapon in the museum called Rapier in the 15th century century German Style, probably made in the 18th or 19th century. Which, by the way, is a period of time in which historical knowledge of weaponry was weak and beset with all sorts of myths. for instance, that same person might have claimed something like medieval swords were essentially blunt metal clubs, which is untrue but was widely repeated in the 19th century.

But in actuality, I'm pretty sure it's just a rapier with some characteristics that were identified in specimens of German swords, and it was called a rapier, because this sword is a rapier, or it was modeled after a cut-and-thrust sword from the 15th century that someone called a rapier, and they called it a rapier in an imprecise way, because in the 19th century there weren't sword typology cops to stop you.

To be clear, this sword was made 200 to 300 years after its supposed inspiration, and doesn't actually look like any 15th century sword I've ever seen. I challenge you to find a "German rapier in the style of the 15th century" that is from the 15th century. German fencing in that century focused on the longsword. A 19th century swordmaker making a weapon styled after a "15th century German rapier" probably just made an edged rapier with a ring-guard. This precise example has a curved hilt going each way, like an older sword, rather than a characteristic basket or wire hilt, like a contemporary rapier. It is inspired by 15th century weapons, purportedly German ones, but isn't modeled after an actual rapier, which did not exist in that time and place.

This is quite a thread drift, but I really want to emphasize that 15th century German fencing did not involve rapiers, it focused on pretty much exactly the AD&D weapon list. Longswords, dirks, early broadswords, early two-handed swords, and a handful of transitional cut-and-thrust swords in the Romantic style.

This is a German sword from 1440:

 

[Paul Farquhar]

So your argument is, "it was called a rapier, but actually wasn't a rapier".

Frankly, that's pointless. Irrespective if what they called a rapier then is different to what we call a rapier now, the technology existed to make a rapier by 1400. What weapons people choose to make and fight with is a matter of culture, not technology. And D&D includes may different cultures, most of which never existed in the real world.

 

[AlViking]

Apparently the argument is that there could only be one type of sword in use at a time? That and a quick internet search that brings up this article History of the Rapier that claims "...it was first introduced (in the 15th century)" is just wrong.

Admittedly like many weapon categories we apply to weapons today, what the people called a specific style of weapon may not match exactly what people called a rapier back then. Another example would be a long sword which just meant a sword longer than most other swords that were in common use at the time.

So both sides are correct. The term rapier was used for cut and thrust swords and eventually evolved into thrusting only with a hilt guard. Just like a Model T, a 56 Chevy and a Toyota Camry are all sedans.

 

[Don Durito]

I'm running a game set in Italy in the 15th century at the moment and I have to agree that I could find no evidence that rapiers were around at that point. At least what is technically called a rapier in modern Hema typology anyway.

(That said a sidesword is just as adequate for buckling swashes anyway).

Of course, this just raises the question of what exactly the D&D rapier is supposed to be. Given that what D&D calls a longsword is nothing like what modern Hema does, it would seem remiss to just assume that what D&D and Hema mean by rapier is necessarily the same thing.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Given that what D&D calls a longsword is nothing like what modern Hema does,

How? It is a longish sword that can be used with either one or two hands. That's what a longsword usually means.

 

[Willie the Duck]

I definitely feel like the swashbuckling pirate, upon encountering the dragon, should feel a little under-dressed and under-armed.

Now this was actually a thing in D&D. Back in 2nd edition where I mentioned they introduced rapiers and cutlasses (and stone/bone weapons and belaying pins and...) they had this issue. Players got ahold of The Complete Fighters guide and made up pirate and swashbuckler and savage kit characters and had a rollicking good time during character creation... and then their DMs put them right back into the same crawl-through-dungeons-and-fight-ghouls-and-ogres game they played with AD&D plate mail and longswords and the results were pretty grim.

Mind you, no worse than back in 1e when someone decided to use a horseman's flail or awl pike. AD&D wanted you to use longswords, lances, composite longbows, and two-handed swords (if your DM changes the magic item distribution), and then gave you two pages of other weapons to solidly ignore (oh, and maces and warhammers for clerics and for fighting skeletons).

Anyways, we've circled back at the point where you point out that setup A isn't designed for fighting dragons, and then everyone points out that setup B (longswords and plate) wasn't either. The correct gear for fighting dragons would be a vhegat* and nofflim*, and a whole lot of hoping and praying.
*weapons and armor that do not exist historically, that would have been developed in a world with real dragons.

I'm running a game set in Italy in the 15th century at the moment and I have to agree that I could find no evidence that rapiers were around at that point. At least what is technically called a rapier in modern Hema typology anyway.

(That said a sidesword is just as adequate for buckling swashes anyway).

Of course, this just raises the question of what exactly the D&D rapier is supposed to be. Given that what D&D calls a longsword is nothing like what modern Hema does, it would seem remiss to just assume that what D&D and Hema mean by rapier is necessarily the same thing.

How? It is a longish sword that can be used with either one or two hands. That's what a longsword usually means.

I think Don is thinking of the AD&D-3e era, where the thing labelled longsword was the sword normally wielded in one hand and got little to no benefit* from adding a second hand -- and where there were specifically other swords for using two-handed and for using either one- or two-handed. *depending on overall rule structure, each edition slightly different.

You are correct that nowadays (5e/5e.24) the longsword is the one- or two-handed sword (with genuine reasons to wield in each format).

 

[pawsplay]

So your argument is, "it was called a rapier, but actually wasn't a rapier".

Frankly, that's pointless. Irrespective if what they called a rapier then is different to what we call a rapier now, the technology existed to make a rapier by 1400. What weapons people choose to make and fight with is a matter of culture, not technology. And D&D includes may different cultures, most of which never existed in the real world.

My point was that it was called a rapier in the 20th century, "it" in this case being a 19th century sword, and rapiers, however you want to define them, did not exist in Germany in 1440. They should up a hundred years later in parts of Europe and don't really penetrate the German fencing world until the 17th century. There is no linguistic or actual 15th century German rapier.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

My point was that it was called a rapier in the 20th century, "it" in this case being a 19th century sword, and rapiers, however you want to define them, did not exist in Germany in 1440. They should up a hundred years later in parts of Europe and don't really penetrate the German fencing world until the 17th century. There is no linguistic or actual 15th century German rapier.

Which is hardly relevant, since D&D isn’t set in Germany.

Of course, if we want to get really pedantic, there was no such place as Germany in the 17th century.