The rogue - is it a necessary class?
- Thread starter der_kluge
- Start date
stevelabny
Explorer
the character im playing is a homebrew-rules-tricked-out rogue3/bard3/homebrew bard PRC1
basically I'm a trick monkey. I can do just about antyhing. Though nowhere near as well as the rest of the party. What can I do better? Speak and Stealth.
My weaknesses? Undead and the strange homebrew demon creatures with DR 15/crystal weapons. When the battle gets this ugly, I sit back and sing. IF I was a full rogue, Id probably try to sneak around behind the battle and get whatever they were guarding/protecting while the battle raged.
Do I get frustrated for the occasional battle with these enemies? no, because I know there are plenty of humanoids waiting to be sneak-attacked around the next plot-turn. And I doubt the fighter gets mad when he misses out on something because you need magic or need stealth, or the wizard gets mad when hes out of spells.
Its YOUR job as a dM to make sure that any adventure has an equal amount of spots for your characters to shine and to feel useless.
I agree that traps all over are annoying and pace-killing, but certain special rooms (especially in long forgotten temples guarded by undead) should definately be trapped to keep out unwanted visitors.
But since this trapless dungeon of undead and golems is now past...as long as yopu dont send them back to another one, you should be fine. Make the next bunch of battles involve things that CAN be sneak-attacked but even more importantly
FIND WAYS TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF HER SKILL POINTS! it really sounds like you are not requiring enough skill checks in favor of an all out dungeon crawl.
the rogue is balanced to be the best class at out-of-combat situations.and that falls on you to take care of.
So stop reading this and go prepare for game-day
basically I'm a trick monkey. I can do just about antyhing. Though nowhere near as well as the rest of the party. What can I do better? Speak and Stealth.
My weaknesses? Undead and the strange homebrew demon creatures with DR 15/crystal weapons. When the battle gets this ugly, I sit back and sing. IF I was a full rogue, Id probably try to sneak around behind the battle and get whatever they were guarding/protecting while the battle raged.
Do I get frustrated for the occasional battle with these enemies? no, because I know there are plenty of humanoids waiting to be sneak-attacked around the next plot-turn. And I doubt the fighter gets mad when he misses out on something because you need magic or need stealth, or the wizard gets mad when hes out of spells.
Its YOUR job as a dM to make sure that any adventure has an equal amount of spots for your characters to shine and to feel useless.
I agree that traps all over are annoying and pace-killing, but certain special rooms (especially in long forgotten temples guarded by undead) should definately be trapped to keep out unwanted visitors.
But since this trapless dungeon of undead and golems is now past...as long as yopu dont send them back to another one, you should be fine. Make the next bunch of battles involve things that CAN be sneak-attacked but even more importantly
FIND WAYS TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF HER SKILL POINTS! it really sounds like you are not requiring enough skill checks in favor of an all out dungeon crawl.
the rogue is balanced to be the best class at out-of-combat situations.and that falls on you to take care of.
So stop reading this and go prepare for game-day
WizarDru
Adventurer
That's what magic items are for. Mind you, if all the party can look forward to is demons, devils and slaad, then the rogue player either needs to rethink her style, or get a different character. Evil outsiders are cleric/wizard fodder in some many ways, it's ridiculous.die_kluge said:
That said, she has two ways to go, depending on where she feels the pain of inefficency, IMHO. One, she can become a specialist fighter. Setting up flanks, attacking to aid, performing feints, grapples and hamstrings. She won't be the center of attention or the one to land the killing blow...but she will be the one to enable it to happen. Giving the fighter an effective +4 to attack is nothing to sneeze at. Scouting ahead stealthily can protect the party and radically change the outcome of a battle. Zombies lying wait ahead, prepared to ambush the group? Thanks to the rogue, you know they're there. Lever to close the gate just behind that beholder? The rogue can tumble there.
The second option is to become the party toolbox and monkey wrench. With access to Use Magic Device and some ingenuity, the rogue can become a wildcard in any fight. The cleric's down and out? The rogue can revive her with a wand or scroll. The golem requires a password or it'll attack? Time to decipher script or bluff. Want to fool an attacking monster? I simple wand of Silent Image and a good bluff check will do the trick. Confuse and inflitrate the enemy ranks with an alter-self, a bluff and some acting. To say nothing of crazy combat options. When your chance of hitting is low, you try different options, like Thunderstones, Tanglefoot bags and other unusal tactics. High-level characters face lots of Dispels and anti-magic fields....who do you think's going to have the tindertwig or sun rod when the lights go out? Who's going to have that flask of oil, vial of holy water, potion of spider climb? Low cost utility items and a little creative thinking (especially when coupled with high skill numbers) equals fun.
The rogue only has ONE unique class feature, and that is the ability to disarm magical traps. What she can do exceedingly well, however, is to fill any of a number of roles within the group, not the least of which is scout. Plenty of high-level creatures have See Invisible or True Seeing as a natural at-will ability...but far fewer of them have blindsight. A smart rogue takes advantage of that fact.
Personally, I would think that if you're going to require the players to fulfill certain roles, you should make sure that you've set aside certain challenges to allow each player a chance to highlight their abilities. If you're not, then you should consider not forcing them into said roles.
It's possible that part of the problem may be that she may be using the rogue like a sneaky fighter, as opposed to like a rogue, and then having her expectations fall when the rogue doesn't work as expected...but I have no idea if that's the case or not.
Speak for yourself, son. In games I run, the bard is a valued party member. In the most recent RtToEE game, the bard used bluff to try and convince a Chuul that they were members of the water temple (and if combat hadn't already started it would have succeeded). In dungeon or out, social skills come into play, unless DM and players choose not to use them.
Last edited:
Tsyr
Explorer
If you want a hardier rogue-ish base class, pick up the "Adventurer" power class book from Mongoose. It's basicly indiana jones/laura croft in class form (Hell, the cover is a rip-off of Laura Croft).
But really, it sounds to me like the question you really need to ask is, "Am I running a game where I should have asked someone to play a rogue?", to which case, I would answer, no. Any game with a fair amount of undead (and entire dungeons full of mostly undead), and in which you admit you are unwilling to put things in the dungeon for her to do (Traps for example), is not really a game you should have asked for a rogue for.
But really, it sounds to me like the question you really need to ask is, "Am I running a game where I should have asked someone to play a rogue?", to which case, I would answer, no. Any game with a fair amount of undead (and entire dungeons full of mostly undead), and in which you admit you are unwilling to put things in the dungeon for her to do (Traps for example), is not really a game you should have asked for a rogue for.
Ragin' Halfling
First Post
In 3+ there are several classes that specialize in gathering as much of one game mechanic as possible. Wizards know the spells. Fighters are feat machines. Rogues OWN the skills.
Even if you leave out all the cool class abilities, the rogue's vast skill selection makes him/her a valuable tool. Given enough levels, rogues can literally do anything. Have an extra wand, Use Magic Device allows the rogue to pick it up and fireball the bad guys. Healing Scrolls, no problem. All of the 'sensory' skills are class skill for the rogue. They're viable just for that. Rogues with 12 ranks in Listen and a decent Wisdom score are almost impossible to surprise. They hear something, warn the rest of the party, and the rogue has just save the group from a costly surprise round.
I rogue I recently played was the front line guy in the party. Load him down with tanglefoot bags or some improved invisibility and he cuts through the bad guys like nothing else. And if you're fighting creatures immune to critical hits, give him a useful wand.
Tumble and evasion give the rogue unparalleled survivability. They can tumble past enemies, avoiding attacks of opportunity, and if they're targeted by an angry spellcaster they'll pass the save and take no damage.
If a rogue isn't useful, it wasn't well made.
Best feats for a rogue: spring attack, expertise, and improved trip. Spring attack will allow them to tumble in to flank, sneak attack, and get out of there. Expertise improves the lightly armored guy's ac, and improved trip allows him to wreak havoc in combat. Once the front line guy (fighter, ranger, paladin, monk) is set up, get the rogue to flank, everything after that is adaptation.
Even if you leave out all the cool class abilities, the rogue's vast skill selection makes him/her a valuable tool. Given enough levels, rogues can literally do anything. Have an extra wand, Use Magic Device allows the rogue to pick it up and fireball the bad guys. Healing Scrolls, no problem. All of the 'sensory' skills are class skill for the rogue. They're viable just for that. Rogues with 12 ranks in Listen and a decent Wisdom score are almost impossible to surprise. They hear something, warn the rest of the party, and the rogue has just save the group from a costly surprise round.
I rogue I recently played was the front line guy in the party. Load him down with tanglefoot bags or some improved invisibility and he cuts through the bad guys like nothing else. And if you're fighting creatures immune to critical hits, give him a useful wand.
Tumble and evasion give the rogue unparalleled survivability. They can tumble past enemies, avoiding attacks of opportunity, and if they're targeted by an angry spellcaster they'll pass the save and take no damage.
If a rogue isn't useful, it wasn't well made.
Best feats for a rogue: spring attack, expertise, and improved trip. Spring attack will allow them to tumble in to flank, sneak attack, and get out of there. Expertise improves the lightly armored guy's ac, and improved trip allows him to wreak havoc in combat. Once the front line guy (fighter, ranger, paladin, monk) is set up, get the rogue to flank, everything after that is adaptation.
EtherHulkRending
First Post
undercutting the rogue
SO far I have read many of the replies and everyone is still selling the rogue short. The rogue makes a particularly good scout if his skills reflect it. (hide, MS, spot and listen)
That party can send the rogue down the dungeon hall to scout what's ahead and get recon. on what's waiting to smash the party. Then he can report back what he found and the party can prepare to make the fight easier. This puts a lot of fun into playing the rogue knowing that you're down the hall alone relying on your wits, not your party, to survive.
In combat the rogue can tumble in to get a flank so that the fighter or barbarian can tee off with a power attack, the rogue can also aid another to the same effect. I play a number of variants on the big-dumb-fighter and I found that the rogue is ALWAYS handy to have around regardless of what we're fighting.
Even still, my favorite character was a rogue/ranger built as a scout, not a diplomat nor was he combat machine material. I rarely fought with both swords cause I could rarely hit with even one. My job was to get the info the party needed and then to help them survive the fight.
Rogue is just as needed as any other class. Even a barbarian can be fun at the King's Ball
SO far I have read many of the replies and everyone is still selling the rogue short. The rogue makes a particularly good scout if his skills reflect it. (hide, MS, spot and listen)
That party can send the rogue down the dungeon hall to scout what's ahead and get recon. on what's waiting to smash the party. Then he can report back what he found and the party can prepare to make the fight easier. This puts a lot of fun into playing the rogue knowing that you're down the hall alone relying on your wits, not your party, to survive.
In combat the rogue can tumble in to get a flank so that the fighter or barbarian can tee off with a power attack, the rogue can also aid another to the same effect. I play a number of variants on the big-dumb-fighter and I found that the rogue is ALWAYS handy to have around regardless of what we're fighting.
Even still, my favorite character was a rogue/ranger built as a scout, not a diplomat nor was he combat machine material. I rarely fought with both swords cause I could rarely hit with even one. My job was to get the info the party needed and then to help them survive the fight.
Rogue is just as needed as any other class. Even a barbarian can be fun at the King's Ball
Some people say that the rogue class is needed/good. However, do you know anyone that plays a straight-classed rogue? Everyone I've seen just uses the rogue class to enhance their fighter's skills and damage or else they go into a PrC by 6th level.
The rogue has too few HPs to be a decent swashbuckler without fighter levels.
If the rogues skills are actually useful in the game, it usually means that the party HAS to have a +12 Sense Motive check in the group or they can't figure out what's going on, or they HAVE to be able to remove a DC 32 trap. Usually if the rogue's skills are necessary, it means that the skills are the only way around a problem. One way around a problem + rogue rolling a 1 = frustrated party.
The fact that a rogue is a good scout is of limited interest, since generally only the rogue can do it. Once a rogue starts scouting, he becomes a solo player while everyone else looks on. Sometimes it would be good if a group could use stealth to avoid a problem, but since only the rogue can do it, it isn't really a choice at all.
I've noticed that players who are divas tend to choose rogue because they get to do a lot of things by themselves while everybody else waits. It's really better to create an adventure in which rogues aren't necessary because it allows the entire group to participate more of the time.
The rogue has too few HPs to be a decent swashbuckler without fighter levels.
If the rogues skills are actually useful in the game, it usually means that the party HAS to have a +12 Sense Motive check in the group or they can't figure out what's going on, or they HAVE to be able to remove a DC 32 trap. Usually if the rogue's skills are necessary, it means that the skills are the only way around a problem. One way around a problem + rogue rolling a 1 = frustrated party.
The fact that a rogue is a good scout is of limited interest, since generally only the rogue can do it. Once a rogue starts scouting, he becomes a solo player while everyone else looks on. Sometimes it would be good if a group could use stealth to avoid a problem, but since only the rogue can do it, it isn't really a choice at all.
I've noticed that players who are divas tend to choose rogue because they get to do a lot of things by themselves while everybody else waits. It's really better to create an adventure in which rogues aren't necessary because it allows the entire group to participate more of the time.
The Temple Raider is a sort of rogue/cleric that gets some divine spellcasting, so it may not fit the character or the player. Like most of the S&S PrCs, it isn't all that exciting. Another possibility is the Royal Explorer (also from S&S) which is a little more Indiana Jones-ish.die_kluge said:
Psion
Adventurer
In my long running epic level game (started before 3e at 1st level), the only character than is not either multiclass or has ECL levels is a rogue.
I am astonished that, given the usefulness of some rogue class skill (spot, search, and listen, among others) that anyone could suggest that a rogue is not useful.
Particle_Man
Explorer
I played a straight rogue for 13 lvls (the campaign is currently on hold) and the first 6 of them were mostly spent fighting undead.
I LOVED that character. I almost never got surprised, I could figure out if someone was lying, I could disarm magical traps on the spot (the wizard did not have a dispel magic on hand, having either used it or memorized something else that day)), I could sneak around and follow people without worrying about magical detection, I was a jumping fiend and a tumbling maniac. I could gather info. that helped the party. I was one of only two characters to live through all 13 levels without having to roll up a new character.
One thing I noticed about the rogue is that playing it forced me to play smarter than I did with other characters. I knew I was more vulnerable, and that made me use tactics more effectively than when I was relying upon spells or masses or hit points + decend AC (depending on what character I previously was). Being a rogue is a state of mind.
I LOVED that character. I almost never got surprised, I could figure out if someone was lying, I could disarm magical traps on the spot (the wizard did not have a dispel magic on hand, having either used it or memorized something else that day)), I could sneak around and follow people without worrying about magical detection, I was a jumping fiend and a tumbling maniac. I could gather info. that helped the party. I was one of only two characters to live through all 13 levels without having to roll up a new character.
One thing I noticed about the rogue is that playing it forced me to play smarter than I did with other characters. I knew I was more vulnerable, and that made me use tactics more effectively than when I was relying upon spells or masses or hit points + decend AC (depending on what character I previously was). Being a rogue is a state of mind.
Similar Threads
