The rogue - is it a necessary class?

[WizarDru]

I do like your suggestion, but I want to avoid the idea that things are there just because there is a rogue. I mean, I'm a programmer. I don't think I've ever been in a situation where a woman has rushed out of a building and yelled, "Is there a program around? I need someone to write a C program!" In the real world, that just doesn't happen. Likewise, I'm not going to just put in traps just to give the rogue some sense of being. Like I said, however, I do like your idea of letting the rogue stay busy while the others fend off creatures. That's a nice balance, and I might have to implement something like that.

True, but you're also not a d20 modern character, trying to escape the Nakitomi towers after Hans Gruber and his terrorists have taken it over, either, where you and your friends have managed to make it to the executive board room, but you're the only programmer who can rewrite the elevator locking routine and knows how to get admin level access to do it.

In fact, from your description, it sounds like you've done the exact opposite...you've removed the possiblity of traps and similar dangers, specifically to prevent the rogue from functioning, because you don't like the dynamic. I would be expecting death-traps against tomb raiders as a standard fantasy trope. Which is fine, but I think you either need to find other ways to engage the rogue or give her tasks specific to her. Everybody needs a chance to be the star for a little while.

 

[stevelabny]

I do like your suggestion, but I want to avoid the idea that things are there just because there is a rogue. I mean, I'm a programmer. I don't think I've ever been in a situation where a woman has rushed out of a building and yelled, "Is there a program around? I need someone to write a C program!" In the real world, that just doesn't happen. Likewise, I'm not going to just put in traps just to give the rogue some sense of being.

again this is where the basic problem is. If you had a party full of rogues, would you have ran them through the undead-golem-no traps-temple? This leads to the important question of railroading. If the party would have declines to go into the next undead/golem filled dungeon because of the rogue, will you railroad them into it anyway?

Your "I've never had a woman ask if there was a program around, I need someone to write a program" just DOESNT hold water.
Youre a programmer, so you get a job SPECIFICALLY to write programs.
You enjoy gaming, you come to a gaming messageboard.
You don't get a job as a musician or go to a political messageboard.
Treat your rogue the same way.

Your ridiculous attempts to be the man behind the curtain and hide the fact that you are playing a game (" I won't cater to the PC rogue") are forgetting that it IS a game, and you have to make sure the players have fun too. If you did anything BUT specifically cater the next adventure so the rogue has a little extra to do to compensate for your mistake, youre doing her a ddisservice.

You cant just keep throwing non-specific baddies at your group. You have to give them challenges that show their strong-points and challenges that show their weak-points and then mix them up with unexpected twists to keep it interesting. All of this will test how they function as a team.

I would think you were just running a by-the-book module if it werent for your "no-traps" comment, we all know that modules have lots of traps. Since on some level you constructing the adventure, you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO cater to your specific group. If this doesnt interest you, step down as DM, become a player, and write a novel on the side.

 

[Altalazar]

I just HAD to say it - I LOVE Rogues - Three things: SKILLS SKILLS SKILLS! They get SKILLS GALORE! I LOVE SKILLS! They also get some other cool things like uncanny dodge, sneak attack, etc. They really can hold their own and survive in situations that could kill just about any other class. (Save for NO damage, bypass traps, locks, stab in the back, etc.)

They are one of my favorite classes, if not the favorite, in 3E.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

My take: rogues are very handy guys to have around.

If you want to find traps, you'll probably need a rogue. Only after you find the traps is it usually possible to deal with them in the suboptimal ways that Wizardru describes. (And Find Traps is not generally practical although it might work for a mystic theurge with a high int and crossclass ranks in search).

Especially in 3.5 where invisibility has the paltry duration of 1 min/level, any kind of extended scouting will require either a rogue or a wand of invisibility.

Rogues also have a lot of skills--which is quite useful. If you want someone good at lying or detecting lies, a rogue can fill that role. (A bard can too but you don't necessarily have a bard; a paladin can fill one role and a sorceror the other as well but neither can combine the two effectively).

If you want a tactical fighter who relies upon your tactical finesse and positioning a rogue can be devastatingly effective in that role. (Not so much against things immune to sneak attacks but you should fight things that aren't immune to sneak attacks on a regular basis too).

 

[der_kluge]

Well, so long as someone else is going to dredge up my thread, I'll post an update to it.

This weekend the party will get to fight lots of non-undead things (mainly trolls, and a troll hunter), and then a bunch of Slaad (see my other thread about how many Slaad is too many). So, the rogue should get to shine a lot more in these encounters than she was before. So, we'll see how that goes.

 

[Nightfall]

Course Rogues are important! I mean it's thanks to them and Rangers, I'm in print finally!

 

[Mystery Man]

I could use some suggestions...

After level 10-12 the guy who plays the rogue for my group is bored silly. He has a hard time hitting some of the bigger baddies and he really doesn't even need to roll to hide etc in some cases. I'm having a hard time coming up with things that will tax him in that regard.

This weekend the party will get to fight lots of non-undead things (mainly trolls, and a troll hunter), and then a bunch of Slaad (see my other thread about how many Slaad is too many). .

Man are they gonna hate slaad. Lemme tell ya!

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

In our groups the rogue usually plays the scout when outdoors, the lock and trap specialist when indoors and tries to use sneak attack to their best advantage. We have a low level group right now, so many thigs the rogue does cannot be replicated by magic yet, and even when they can, they usually rely on the rogue so they can take spells that do things other classes cannot do easily.

I agree that a party can get by without a rogue, but a party can also get by without a straight fighter, even without a wizard, although it is much more difficult. I would say about the only class that you really cannot get by with is a cleric simply because the other classes with healing ability are more limited, and it is impossible to know how many potions or charges in a wand will be needed in an extended dungeon crawl. The cleric will always have a new set of spell the next day.

Personally I don't think a DM should require the party to have a specific set of classes unless the campaign is set up to really need them. In my experience the players usually balance the party out on their own and then they don't feel they were forced into it by the DM.

 

[Altalazar]

Don't forget that the Rogue also is one class that can benefit quite a lot from multiclassing with certain other classes - a few spells can come in handy, or a few other abilities. And still SKILLS SKILLS SKILLS. I played a gnome (meglamaniac) Illusionist/Rogue and that was fun and interesting - but perhaps part of it was the character alone...

 

[der_kluge]

After level 10-12 the guy who plays the rogue for my group is bored silly. He has a hard time hitting some of the bigger baddies and he really doesn't even need to roll to hide etc in some cases. I'm having a hard time coming up with things that will tax him in that regard.



Man are they gonna hate slaad. Lemme tell ya!

Well, since you are currently running the adventure that I will be eventually, I Can safely say that - yes, they are gonna learn to hate Slaad.