The Rule of Tens

How about a 20th level fighter, armed with a spiked chain, using his whirlwind attack feat in a room full of orcs? This is already a colossal pain in the backside...this rule would triple the number of dice rolls required.

This rule is definately not for me. I think my head would explode.

Your complaint about the Craft skill is valid, however. It's probably a topic better-suited to its own thread, but I kinda-sorta fixed it by not allowing a "take 10" on Craft checks.
 

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I've seen this... And contemplated using it, but replacing each +10 with a d20. That leaves the average of the bonus about the same. Also, whenever you take 10 or 20, all your extra d20s are considered to be 10s.

Later
silver
 

Michael Silverbane said:
I've seen this... And contemplated using it, but replacing each +10 with a d20. That leaves the average of the bonus about the same. Also, whenever you take 10 or 20, all your extra d20s are considered to be 10s.

Later
silver

*envisions spending his entire disposable income on extra d20s*

so...my 20th level fighter with a +20 BAB, +5 weapon, +3 misc. feat bonus, +8 stat bonus (conservatively), (total +36) to full attack would roll
d20 + d20 + d20 + d20 +6
d20 + d20 + d20 + d20 +1
d20 + d20 + d20 + 6
d20 + d20 + d20 +1

14d20!!!

Perhaps we should include a defense roll in this too :P

DC
 


Celebrim said:
For each attack...

...and you still won't have a third of the dice seen clattering per action in some published systems.

Exactly...

...and I assume that this was not a defense of this system. One of the greatest frustrations (one mind you, there are hundreds I could mention) with certain systems published by a certain publishing company with a pale lupine logo is the need for a bag of infinite dice.

More dice = slower (especially if you are adding; the only saving grace of many excessively dice driven games is that each die is assessed separately against a set difficulty which kept the game from being slowed down by math...though such systems actually end up penalizing you for more dice from more chances to critically fail, but that is neither here nor there)

Slower = fewer events per game session

Fewer events = less action / less leveling / less plot (we'll call this one etc)

Less "etc" = less fun (for me and mine, YMMV)

DC
 

Converting each +10 of bonus to 1d20 might not be a bad idea for a feat, though, for a luck or chaos-themed character. It gives a small (+0.5) bonus to the expected result for each +10 that the character has on any roll.
 

I see a recursive line of reasoning coming up:

1. Because 'take 10' is too easy if you have a +30 on your skillcheck, we replace the bonus with a die roll:
every +10 becomes a die.
2. Because we don't want to punish people going from +9 to +10, we replace the +10 with a d20
3. Because we don't want to keep rolling lots of dice, we still allow 'take 10' which results in: replacing the d20 with a +10......

Herzog
 


I think you missed what is to me the single biggest problem with the system.

A +9 bonus has a significantly higher average result (19.5), than a +11 bonus (17).
It's not significanantly higher, but yeah... I caught that when I was doing the math, and forgot to note it.

Consider a telescoping roll instead. For a system that may one day live, I devised the "d5+1" mechanic:
- Roll a d6
- Value is 1-5: you get that value.
- Value is 6: you get 5 + another roll.
I didn't see what you were doing at first, but now I get it - for every 4 points in the score, you roll 1d6. If it comes up 6, you get 5+ another roll.

So if I had, say, a +24 bonus, I'd roll (I assume) 1d20+4d6, for an average of 10+(4*3.5) = 24. The problem here is that you can get well above your normal maximum with a really good roll. I kind of like the idea of using straight d6s, but you're doubling the number of dice being rolled.

You mean a 1d20, right?
No, 1d10. I'm reaplacing every 10 points of the bonus with a variable, so you can score anywhere from 1-10 in that range, while not increasing the maximum you can score.

How about a 20th level fighter, armed with a spiked chain, using his whirlwind attack feat in a room full of orcs? This is already a colossal pain in the backside...this rule would triple the number of dice rolls required.
Yeah, that was noted - it was a pretty obvious problem, even to me. :) He's making one attack against each opponent in 5 feet - so something like 9-10 attack rolls. Yeah, pretty bad.

Your complaint about the Craft skill is valid, however. It's probably a topic better-suited to its own thread, but I kinda-sorta fixed it by not allowing a "take 10" on Craft checks.
I've thought about that, but I can't see any reason to justify it - it would stink of "arbitrary rule syndrome". Maybe I'll suggest dropping this rule for combat and just using it for saves and skill checks... if I could work out the other kinks first.

I've seen this... And contemplated using it, but replacing each +10 with a d20. That leaves the average of the bonus about the same. Also, whenever you take 10 or 20, all your extra d20s are considered to be 10s.
Right, the average will be the same, but the upper end will be way above the maximum, as I noted with Nifft's system. Also, replacing d10s with d20s will make the problem worse - a +19 will be a LOT better than a +20. I think the solution is go smaller, not larger - the Rule of Sixes, maybe? :p
 

Kerrick said:
It's not significanantly higher, but yeah... I caught that when I was doing the math, and forgot to note it.

No, it's significantly higher. When you consider that ordinarily, a character with a +11 bonus would expect to score 2 higher on average than a character with a +9 bonus you realize that the total penalty is 4.5 - which in problems with scalable DC's ends up being like 22.5% more likely to fail. That is significant. Another way to look at it is that you've taken away 4.5 'ranks' of the 11 that the player has acquired - or about 40% of them. And what's worse, is that you haven't done this smoothly, but that there is a sudden drop in effectiveness that occurs between +9 and +10 which isn't fully recovered until like +15.

The discontinuities like that are going to kill this system in practice, and attempting to remove the discontinuities is going to result in an ugly and complex system.
 

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