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The Rules: Who cares?

Ariosto

First Post
Majoru Oakheart, the problem appears to me essentially the same when people disagree with what's in a book. To take your jumping example, my memory suggests that the rule was changed in 3.5 to be simpler and (by the sort of assessment you mention) less accurate. The big difference is that if you put your trust in fellow players then you can change the rule a lot more easily than if you must convince someone at Corporate HQ to print up a new book.

The basic circumstance of people being so niggling and fractious in the first place is what is so strikingly strange to me. With such a foundation, piling up rules seems likely to bog down the game in even more rules-lawyering, calling for even more rules to close loopholes, and so on in a vicious cycle.

People of that persuasion seem unlikely ever to be satisfied until the One Rule is that they always get their way.

This is to my mind a problem of social skills -- not the numbers on a character sheet but the ability of the player to carry on relationships with real people in the real world. It is essential to playing any game, but the nature of an RPG makes it even more important.

We could cut it right back to being just another board game with nothing permitted but what is perfectly described in the cut-and-dried rules -- and the problem players would still be a problem.
 

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Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
The Dragon was a great source of variants. It is, as a practical matter, more troublesome to change things so that game elements cannot be communicated without someone else having to learn your house rules. When talk or writing about your campaign must be either misleading or simply incomprehensible otherwise, it's time to say, "Oh, that's not D&D; it's my game of Fantastic Adventure" (or whatever). In fact, that is how a lot of new games evolved.
If that is the criteria for no longer playing D&D then 1e ceased being D&D due to the number of house rules you'd have to communicate(most of the PHB and DMG) to someone who only knew how to play D&D. 2e likewise would not be D&D, even if you assumed 1e was D&D. Since the number of house rules you'd have to communicate to someone who played 1e would be so large that you aren't playing the same game anymore.

And like you said, it was common to change the rules of D&D and still consider it D&D. TSR even encouraged it. I doubt the differences between 4e and 1e can be considered so great as to suddenly invoke the "It is no longer D&D" mantra.

Yes, it is a different game. Just as all previous editions of the game have been a different game than the one before them.
 

Ariosto

First Post
In the war-game hobby from which D&D arose, games are often played without a game master. The latter's primary and essential function really seems to me bound up with managing the limited-information aspect of a game; the "referee" function is secondary -- and not essential if players bring to the table the maturity to handle things on their own.

A common and simple rule is this: If you really cannot agree on how to adjudicate a situation, then toss a coin or roll a die and get on with the game.

That is clearly not well suited to someone with a "win at all costs" attitude. Such a person might well dispute every single call with more than a 50% chance of going against him, raising frivolous objections on no more than that principle.

The necessary understanding is that the game as a whole is a cooperative enterprise conducted in good faith and above all as a social engagement. Who turns out to win or lose is a relatively inconsequential by-product of exploring the game situation together.

At the table, we are all at least gentlemen and ladies, if not fast friends. Good sportsmanship is a matter both of simple courtesy and of self-respect.

In the D&D context, that is overwhelmingly what I have experienced in playing Original, B/X, 1E, 2E, 3E and 4E. I see no reason to blame the rules-set at hand for what would be bad behavior in any circumstances.
 

Ariosto

First Post
In all my experience, it has mattered so little which old edition of D&D was in mind when material was composed that some people were not even aware of the Gygaxian conceit that they were different games. That one did not need to know the rules of 2E to use a scenario with 1E, or of 1E to use one with Basic/Expert or Original, was amply demonstrated by people doing just that. A monster from Empire of the Petal Throne or The Arduin Grimoire could be plugged into any of the above without a second thought (as could one from Metamorphosis Alpha, unless a mutation gave pause).

That's wherein lies the big difference to which I referred. "Old school" material is not so useful to players of WotC-D&D, or 4E material to 3E players, or any vice-versa, because it requires conversion work. Even after one has worked out a phrase-book translation of terms, one must deal with radical differences in how the factors interact.

To ignore degrees and kinds of difference is to make comparisons meaningless. It is unfortunate that the interaction of corporate culture and geek culture has created such a strong incentive to engage in that as a means to claiming certain words as a form of validation.

It does seem like a departure from the thread's topic, though, so I will leave the floor to others to put in whatever last words may seem appropriate.
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
Majoru Oakheart, the problem appears to me essentially the same when people disagree with what's in a book. To take your jumping example, my memory suggests that the rule was changed in 3.5 to be simpler and (by the sort of assessment you mention) less accurate. The big difference is that if you put your trust in fellow players then you can change the rule a lot more easily than if you must convince someone at Corporate HQ to print up a new book.
That is, if you assume they are wrong. Our group jointly agreed that unless a rule was so completely out there that not a single one of us could see using it, then we'd use it as written. After all, the rules described a fantasy universe that was nothing like ours. If this universe had people jumping 30 feet on a regular basis and falling 200 feet without dying....well, then that's the way the world would work. Rules would be changed for balance reasons, but not for "common sense" reasons.

This was a new concept to us. In our 2e game, the philosophy was "We are attempting to model the way these things work in real life. If a rule doesn't model that correctly, let's fix it and use a house rule instead." We spent most of our time gaming discussing the validity of one rule or another. I'd say we came into conflict with the rules(or lack thereof) about 3-4 times per session.

Having a lot of rules solved most of the really long rules disputes. It started new ones. But most of them were resolved fairly quickly. Instead of arguing things like "Can I jump that far?" or "Is it possible to get enough leverage to lift that rock?" we instead argued "Can I 5-ft step into difficult terrain?" and "If I have this spell up can I still be bullrushed?". Most of these issues were solved by looking things up in the book. Which we did quite frequently...but we were used to it, so no big deal. At least it only took 5 minutes each time. It wasn't like the 2 or 3 hour arguments we used to have about whether it was possible to grapple a fire giant or whether you could breathe in the elemental plane of fire when you were protected with Protection from Fire.

In 4e, we've managed to minimize our arguments even further. Now we have maybe one rules dispute a session. It is still of the same nature as the ones we'd have in 3e. Most of them don't need to be looked up, however, since they are issues the rules don't cover. The DM makes a quick ruling and we move on. Most people are willing to accept "Blast 3 powers go 3 squares up, even though the rules don't say so" as a ruling. However, the rules interactions are smoother and don't rub up against each other as often as 3e.

I think the reason people are willing to accept the rulings with less arguments is because they aren't over "philosophic" issues. For some reason people get REALLY passionate about being about to jump an extra 5 ft. They aren't so hung up over whether this power gets to push 1 or 2. Probably because the rules discussions are firmly within the framework of the rules instead of arguing real life.

The basic circumstance of people being so niggling and fractious in the first place is what is so strikingly strange to me. With such a foundation, piling up rules seems likely to bog down the game in even more rules-lawyering, calling for even more rules to close loopholes, and so on in a vicious cycle.
It doesn't, for the reasons I describe above. We find it much easier to play a game than try to simulate reality. The game says we get a +2 to Diplomacy for being a Half-Elf for being "between worlds"....we accept that we get the bonus. Even though an argument can be made that being shunned by 2 different cultures makes you less social and not as good at interacting with people.

But we switched mindsets. The rules are now correct. No matter how wrong they are. Mostly because we were tired of arguing with each other about what the Truth was.

This is to my mind a problem of social skills -- not the numbers on a character sheet but the ability of the player to carry on relationships with real people in the real world. It is essential to playing any game, but the nature of an RPG makes it even more important.
I'm not entirely convinced that this is the case. It comes mainly from a difference backgrounds and assumptions than it does from the social skills of the people involved.

Our biggest arguments always stemmed from this:
-Can you push someone over if they weigh twice as much as you?
-If you poke someone in the eye does that blind them permanently?
-How easy it is to prevent someone from poking you in the eye?
-Does it make sense to use an attack roll a strength check or a dex check to resolve grapple checks?

And we always had wildly differing opinions on such things. Someone would say: "Look, I'll poke you in the eye right now and you try to block it. I bet you can't do it!"

In fact, one of the first arguments we had in 3e before we all decided to just go with the rules regardless of whether we agreed with them was one on Flatfoodedness. Our DM couldn't fathom that anyone would ever stand there and NOT dodge an attack coming at them simply because they hadn't acted yet. Especially considering a round was 6 seconds long. No one stands around for 3 seconds completely surprised and he wasn't going to allow it. No way, no how. This caused the player being the rogue in the group to drop Improved Initiative immediately. Then switch characters a session later when he realized how badly it effected him.

We could cut it right back to being just another board game with nothing permitted but what is perfectly described in the cut-and-dried rules -- and the problem players would still be a problem.
I doubt it. I've played board games with these people whenever not enough people showed for a session. We never argued about board game rules. It was the suggestion that the rules modeled reality that caused all the problems. No one expected a board game to model reality.
 

Ariosto

First Post
Back on topic:

"Rulings, not rules" is a popular catch-phrase among folks who tend also to object strongly to anything labeled as a "skills system".

Getting over the past few years into the "old school" sites online, I have seen a lot of what seems to me first the elevation of ideology and then its reduction to mere jargon.

In game design, as in any other pursuit, there are phenomena that exist before and apart from the names applied to them. Semantics can easily confuse the real concerns.

Part of the problem comes from limited experience. People who have played many other games are more likely to be acquainted with D&D than vice-versa. There has, at least since the first AD&D books appeared, been in my experience a significant segment of gamers with almost fanatical brand loyalty.

I am a longtime fan of The Chaosium's (later Chaosium, Inc.'s) "Basic Role Playing" line, which started with RuneQuest in 1978. It is pretty much the root-stock for most common approaches that did not originate in D&D, including those incorporated into later versions of D&D. (A notable third branch is the concept of "designing" characters popularized in The Fantasy Trip and extended to systematic "building" of all sorts of game elements in Champions.) However, the commonality is only in very broad strokes and differences in detail can be very significant.

Things often get lumped together when they do not necessarily go together. This can mean on one hand that people not really familiar with a game make false assumptions about how it works. On the other hand, designers may assume that using method X automatically entails incorporating element Y because (as far as they know) "that's how it's always done".
 
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Ariosto

First Post
If one has made up one's mind that "modeling reality" is The Rule, then it is obscure to me why it should matter whether the other contender is a book, a referee or a quorum of players. The others might or might not be concerned with reality simulation, and even sharing that concern might not share one's assessment.

The fundamental question is whether one is willing to accept the rules of the game, whatever they may be.

"It wasn't like the 2 or 3 hour arguments we used to have ..." is sheer madness to me, what confounds my understanding. I once went with a friend to join a Rolemaster group. We stood around for some minutes watching an argument over the load-bearing capacity of a mule ... and then exchanged a glance and without a word walked out. Now, RM is not my cup of tea to GM, and other experiences suggested to me that it might attract an unusual share of rules lawyers -- but such a spectacle was utterly unprecedented in the sessions my friend moderated! (He could run Aftermath as smoothly as any RPG has been run by anyone in my experience. I did not need to learn the mechanical aspects to play my character.)
 

Ariosto

First Post
Eek! I meant to set aside the tangent, but this came to mind as an important consideration when translating from one game to another:

"Power curves", rates of advancement and so on may mean that a scenario meant for 15th-level 3E characters works better in 1E if one approaches it with 10th-level characters in mind. A lot of factors combine to make for a different "feel".
 

Remathilis

Legend
Back on topic:

"Rulings, not rules" is a popular catch-phrase among folks who tend also to object strongly to anything labeled as a "skills system".

The problem with Rulings, not rules is (as a few people have said) when the player and the DM fundementally disagree on the criteria of the ruling.

Lets say a human, elf, and dwarf all try and jump a chasm in plate armor. All have the same Str (17). Lacking a skill system; the DM has to decide to make a ruling on the fly on how they all can jump.

He might make it a simple strength check; all PCs have equal chance of making it despite the elf living among the tree-tops and the human living on relatively flat plains all his life.

He might rule the elf can make it no problem; the human can make it only sans his armor, and the dwarf cannot make it at all thanks to the races natural "biology". This enforces the DM's view on the races and takes away PC option. The dwarf can't get a lucky run and make it, the elf cannot "fail" and misjudge. Its simply the DM assigning pass/fail based solely on a cosmetic choice.

But perhaps the DM might be more reasonable and allow the dwarf (whose backstory involves jumping cliff-to-cliff fighting giants) to make it anyway. This creates an "in game" exception to the previous rule. The problem is, once this begins; PCs learn to cram their backstories with all manner of "useful" details (Did I mention my father taught me how to track game?, or Oh, I had an elven friend during childhood, so I know all the elven social graces) so that the PCs can "do" certain things the DM is making an exception for. Pretty soon, PC's youths are full of horseback riding, camping in the deep woods, summer-camps with the elves, afternoon jobs in the local mine, swimming, and yes, even amatuer Olympic events.

Of course, the DM could rule the PCs can't know all that. He might rule the PCs know 3-4 of these special things at most. Or that said special knowledge only grants a bonus to ability checks related to said knowledge, and...

... pretty soon, it starts to look like a primitive skill system. My dwarf knows jumping and mining, my human can swim and ride horses, my elf can hunt and build campsites, etc.

So skill systems do emerge from these rulings. Where they are d20-style skill sets, Non-weapon profs, or even secondary skills, the game drifts in that direction the first time the PCs want to try and jump in plate armor and the DM doesn't automatically say "yes" or "no".
 

Ariosto

First Post
So skill systems do emerge from these rulings.
Yes, although some people would be loathe to say, "We use a skill system". As long as the factors are disjointed enough not to be truly systematic -- as in old D&D, with its scattered d6, d20 and d% rolls -- they can ignore the fact that they have about as many set rules for things as are commonly used in some "skill system" games.

Some associate the concept with artificially limiting what characters can do. "We don't want a riding skill in the game, because then our characters would start falling off their horses." That's an extreme objection, because the question of when to require a skill check can be answered just as reasonably as when to require an ad hoc factor. However, a basic problem with many limited-resource systems is evident in how some people (erroneously, IMO) treat thief-class functions as barring other characters from being sneaky or alert or dealing with traps.

Then there's the worry that any formalism inevitably entails a long list of quotidian ratings with associated rules to look up and apply. "We'll make camp here." "Give me checks on Tent Raising, Wood Chopping, Fire Starting, Water Fetching ..." "Can't we just overbear and pummel instead?"

There's a leeriness of rules-lawyering, as if players are going to start dictating absurd probabilities to a hapless GM. The real bottom line in most cases is that players' control is more illusory than real. With or without a number on a character sheet, it is at the end of the day still up to the GM to set a reasonable probability for a given outcome.

The idea that "roll-playing" must displace role-playing has some foundation in recent trends, but skill ratings (and even more complex systems) have been around a lot longer. It is not the presence of certain mechanisms, but the participants' relationship with them, that decisively drives a game in that direction.

Some implementations, especially in combination, can exert a lot of pressure of the sort that is understandably contrary to certain approaches. Lumping together everything that fits a very vague description (i.e., "skill system") is not very helpful, though.
 

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