The Sandbox And The Grind

[rounser]

You mean those things don't exist in 4e? Can I hit them with my Steel Serpent Strike?

Hey, you put that Steel Serpent back in your pants there, buster. And if you want to strike, join a union. For shame.

 

[Mark]

You mean those things don't exist in 4e? Can I hit them with my Steel Serpent Strike?

"What's wrong with a kiss, boy? Hmm? Why not start her off with a nice kiss? You don't have to go leaping straight for the (. . .)" - Professor Humphrey (The Meaning of Life)

 

[pawsplay]

Remember folks; this isn't the "what is a sandbox?" thread.

This is the "when my players stumble into high-level territory, how do I 'punish' them with a hard exciting fight and not 'reward' them with a frustrating grindy fight?" thread.

Kill them all. Gary will know his own.

 

[Remathilis]

"What's wrong with a kiss, boy? Hmm? Why not start her off with a nice kiss? You don't have to go leaping straight for the (. . .)" - Professor Humphrey (The Meaning of Life)

Hey, you put that Steel Serpent back in your pants there, buster. And if you want to strike, join a union. For shame.

Boys, I think there's something wrong with you.

 

[LostSoul]

I have two questions for sandbox play:

1. How do you reduce the grind for low-level encounter? The outcome is not in doubt (unless you use needlefang drake swarms), but it will take a while to play out.

2. What do you do about low-level XP, and XP for wandering monsters? Pcs can grab a lot of XP without exposing themselves to real risk. Is that what we want for a sandbox game?

 

[darjr]

1. How do you reduce the grind for low-level encounter? The outcome is not in doubt (unless you use needlefang drake swarms), but it will take a while to play out.

Turn the encounter on it's ear and make it a skill challenge and charge players penalties for failed checks or ideas. Penalties would include loss of HP, surges, and encounter/dailies.

Have a wandering monster table of monsters that would be very interested in exploiting an ongoing long drug out combat. Monsters that would turn the encounter into a clear reason to RUN! Do this enough and the players may very well come to the understanding that 'grinding' is dangerous. This would add more grind in some cases, but will make it very much less clear of the outcome.

2. What do you do about low-level XP, and XP for wandering monsters? Pcs can grab a lot of XP without exposing themselves to real risk. Is that what we want for a sandbox game?

Maybe? Some have said that inventive sneakiness around the obstacles to XP is a good and desirable thing in a sandbox game.

However I'd think about exploiting that as a weakness of the party like above.

So yea, it's an easy way to make a small living going after little isolated bands of kobolds, but they'd grow very weary of this and band together. The big kobold chieftan of the region could also put together a bad ass hunting party to fix their little problem. That little snipe hunt of the PC's could quickly turn on them if those hired hunters show up.

Maybe even do a little 'Butch Cassadiy and the Sundance Kid' with the PC's.

 

[LostSoul]

Turn the encounter on it's ear and make it a skill challenge and charge players penalties for failed checks or ideas. Penalties would include loss of HP, surges, and encounter/dailies.

That is something I've thought about doing but have not implemented.

Have a wandering monster table of monsters that would be very interested in exploiting an ongoing long drug out combat. Monsters that would turn the encounter into a clear reason to RUN!

This is something I've done. It worked out very well.

I think that "random events" for encounters is a pretty cool idea, though something I haven't planned for in my current prep. But just something random that will affect the combat, for either side, is a cool idea. Adds tension.

In one of the dungeons I am thinking about implementing a crazy wandering monster table: short rest/search, 1 on a 1d6, like normal; but if there is any noise, like a combat, each round I will roll for wandering monsters. It's an undead-themed area, and I think zombie hordes chasing down the PCs might be cool.

 

[LostSoul]

Maybe? Some have said that inventive sneakiness around the obstacles to XP is a good and desirable thing in a sandbox game.

Maybe. I think there are two types of sandbox games: googlyblits, where the goal is to explore the world; and sandoolepip, where the goal is to challenge the players.

I have never been able to grasp googly play (except the genre-emulation kind), so I'm focused on creating a sandbox in order to challenge the players.

edit: edited for rounser. I think my meaning is still clear, though.

If the "smart choice" is to farm XP from low-level encounters, that ruins the risk-reward that I want to see. It's a winning solution that ruins the game (like tic-tac-toe).

So yea, it's an easy way to make a small living going after little isolated bands of kobolds, but they'd grow very weary of this and band together. The big kobold chieftan of the region could also put together a bad ass hunting party to fix their little problem. That little snipe hunt of the PC's could quickly turn on them if those hired hunters show up.

I see where you're going, but I don't want to make things tougher just because the PCs are higher level. If those kobolds would join togther, PCs level 1 or level 10, then they would.

The challenge comes in for low-level PCs who want to make sure they don't unite! But the high-level PCs, who just want to wrap up a loose end, they're forced to run through long combats where the outcome isn't in doubt.

Yeah, maybe a skill challenge could work, as could pressure on extended rests. I'm not sure how I will deal with it, when and if I get to that point. I'd like to hear experiences from people who have dealt with this.

 

[darjr]

Oh, one more thing. Morale in some earlier editions would end combats before a side was completely defeated.

4e does this with intimidation of bloodied opponents. I'd remind the players that in those cases where the outcome is probably known, intimidating bloodied commanders or individuals (a morale check if you will) could help to swiftly end the encounter. It's a tough check to make, so as a house rule I'd consider giving a big will penalty if the bloodied target understands that they are doomed.

 

[darjr]

I see where you're going, but I don't want to make things tougher just because the PCs are higher level. If those kobolds would join togther, PCs level 1 or level 10, then they would.

I think though the level of the PC's would feed into the perceived level of threat the kobolds have, that would drive their kind of response.

Low level PC's might not get any banding or hiring of a hunting party. The other bands might consider the low level PC's are part of what the individual bands should be able to handle.

High level PC's xp farming kobold bands would be a different thing altogether. A swift and aggressive response to deal with a clear and powerful threat is called for.

Another thing occurred to me. Maybe the response isn't directly combative. Maybe the king of the kobolds could, under a white flag, beseach the king that has dominion over the PC's and get them to do something about it. Something non-combat and role play heavy.