The Shadow in the Flame.... Before the Flame?

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by AvonRekaes:

So I'm curious about this one particular Rajah. We know it as the "Shadow in the Flame" but it's only been "in the Flame" for about 7 centuries. What do you think it was called before that? We can tell from its abilities and the lore in the ECS that it's a Rajah most likely embodying the fear of betrayal. Would his name have reflected that aspect better?

There's also the little blurb about it possibly being The Shadow of the Dark Six, but I wonder how I'd use that. Assuming that I was attempting to reconsile the Nine and Six as actual dragons that existed in the Age of Demons, how would I tie that one dragon that might be Aureon.. (Ourelonatrix?) to this Rajah? Also, if there was any Rajah I'd correlate The Shadow with, I'd think it would fit more with The Keeper of Secrets, since the Dark Six Shadow and the Keeper of Secrets are both known for harboring dark magics, and neither necessarily embodying betrayal.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Hellcow:

There's also the little blurb about it possibly being The Shadow of the Dark Six, but I wonder how I'd use that. Assuming that I was attempting to reconsile the Nine and Six as actual dragons that existed in the Age of Demons, how would I tie that one dragon that might be Aureon.. (Ourelonatrix?) to this Rajah? Also, if there was any Rajah I'd correlate The Shadow with, I'd think it would fit more with The Keeper of Secrets, since the Dark Six Shadow and the Keeper of Secrets are both known for harboring dark magics, and neither necessarily embodying betrayal.

The myth of the Shadow is that Aureon gained mystical knowledge at the price of granting a malevolent life to his shadow - that Aureon reflects the positive uses of magic, and the Shadow its darker and dangerous secrets. You are quite correct that the Keeper of Secrets is a good match in that she is known as the mistress of arcane knowledge.

Bel Shalor's specialty is the ability to deceive or seduce good people into doing bad things; he is the shadow cast by every flame, and it's said that he can make the shadows of mortals conspire against those that cast them. He is not the master of the arcane that Sul Khatesh is, but he is an overlord, which all the knowledge that this entails. So IF... and the key here is IF... he is the inspiration behind the Aureon/Shadow myth, my guess would be that he was somehow bound or trapped, and convinced Ourelonastrix to release him in exchange for arcane knowledge. Bear in mind that Ourelonastrix was the foremost scholar of the Prophecy at the time, and that the Prophecy was the most important weapon in this struggle. So the myth holds that Aureon gained mystic knowledge but "gave malevolent life to his shadow"; another interpretation would be that he freed an overlord in exchange for that knowledge... falling directly into Bel Shalor's specialty of convincing good people to do bad things.

But it's a myth. The priests of Thir consider the Shadow to be a station that can be claimed by an ascended dragon, not an overlord. It's entirely possible that both could be true - that the original myth came from Ourelonastrix releasing Bel Shalor, but then another dragon embraced the darker path of magic and became infamous for it. Or the original Shadow could be exactly what the myth claims - the literal shadow of Aureon, given sentience and form by his studies. Or, of course, this being Eberron, it could be none of the above; Aureon and the Shadow could both be philosophical constructs, actual gods, or nonexistent.

As for the name, it's an excellent point. Personally, I'd probably call him "The Shadow of the Flame" before he was bound, again reflecting the idea that he is the darkness cast by EVERY light, the voice that urges you to take the wrong path. And this keeps the two linguistically close. But I'd love to see other ideas.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by AvonRekaes:

Hmm. So he's actually much more specific that betrayal. Given that his entire being is dedicated to tempting good people to do bad things for good reasons, I wonder if perhaps he's right where he wants to be.

I believe he might be the most influential overlord in the setting right now. Perhaps not the most powerful (I think the Scar That Abides is on record as being the most powerful? I recall him having even other overlords serve him) but the Shadow in the Flame certainly has the most ability to reach into the minds of mortals and influence them, I think.

Perhaps it is because he does not have a physical prison, bound purely by the force of the Flame itself. I think his current state of being "in the Flame" might be some sort of Xanatos Gambit, where he was able to do the most harm with the least amount of resistance. After all, when he was "free" for about a year, armies were raised agaisnt him and mortal heroes reached levels most likely not seen since (if you theorize that Tira Miron reached her Epic Destiny and completed her destiny quest by binding Bel Shalor).

Now he's "bound" in the Flame, free to influence who he wants through it, possibly like with the lycanthropic purge. Maybe Bel Shalor had a vendetta against the Rajah speculated as being behind the strengthened curse of lycanthropy (Who's prakuthu was in Thorne of Breland). The current-day Purist zealots might also be his work, I wonder...

I DO like how he might always have had a metaphoric connection to flame, every "point of light" in the world casting its own shadow. That he always had this connection though, again makes me feel like he wanted to be bound how he currently is. I think it's pretty plausible that he saw the pure flame and wanted to be tied to it intimately, to corrupt and pervert it.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Hellcow:

It certainly seems possible. "Please don't throw me in that briar patch, Tira Miron."

Originally posted by Hellcow:

To me, the issue is that when he's unbound, his power and influence are far greater, but over a more limited area. Page 29 of the ECG discusses this - if unleashed, the people who fall under his sway will become selfish and cruel, turning on one another and acting out of paranoia and fear. Freed, this is a potent power few can resist, but it covers a limited space. While bound, it is a subtle whisper - but one that can reach many more minds. So he's dangerous either way; it's just a different form of threat.

Beyond that, he is certainly a good candidate for super-long-term planning; the idea that he might have chosen to be bound is certainly interesting. Perhaps there is a thread of the Prophecy whereby he could subsume the Silver Flame and BECOME it; he doesn't want to be released from the Flame, he wants to corrupt it and gain full access to the souls it touches. As such, the PCs might actually have to find a way TO free him from the Flame before it's too late... so that they can rebind him in a different way or actually find a way to truly destroy him.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by AvonRekaes:

That is about as much as I was thinking, honestly. I think I have the perfect opportunity to incorporate this into a game I'm running.
(One of the PCs is playing an avenger of the silver flame, and I had Jeala disappear mysteriously from Flamekeep. This would expand that current plot-thread well into epic!)

Going back to the Age of Demons and Ourelonastrix and The Shadow, I wonder if it would be conceivable that the Shadow would literally have been Ourelonatrix's shadow instead of Bel Shalor. Again, this is assuming that the Nine and Six were real creatures once and correlate to dragons in the first age. Perhaps when Ourelonastrix was on the verge of attaining divinity, he intentionally stripped himself of mortal vices and corruption, unintentionally creating the Shadow, who stepped over the line to divinity along with him.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Hellcow:

wonder if it would be conceivable that the Shadow would literally have been Ourelonatrix's shadow instead of Bel Shalor.

Certainly. It's a myth. Bel Shalor is one interpretation, but we're not saying he IS the source of it... simply that "some scholars claim" that he is.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Duke5150:

If its possible to answer this question, how did the shadow of the flame get trapped in the flame?

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by nthdegree256:

If its possible to answer this question, how did the shadow of the flame get trapped in the flame?

Originally? By the couatls sacrificing themselves at the end of the Age of Demons.

More recently, about 700 years ago the Shadow of the Flame attempted to break free, and a couatl was present to hold it at bay, but not powerful enough to prevent its escape alone. But as fate would have it, a powerful paladin of Dol Arrah named Tira Miron was present, and she responded to the couatl's plea for assistance and leapt at the duo blade-first, weakening the Shadow and binding it once again in the Flame, prompting the creation of the Silver Flame religion.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Hellcow:

NthDegree is correct, and as such, the Shadow has been "in the Flame" for a very long time. However, for most of that time, it was likely bound in a Khyber shard prison with less awareness and ability to touch the world. Tira trapped him with her sacrifice, but as noted in the ECG, "He never truly returned to his slumber"... hence AR's point that perhaps was his plan all along.

But yes. He was first bound after being defeated in battle by dragons and couatl and bound by the couatl sacrifice. The story has never been told, but for all we know he could have been defeated by the army of Dularanahk... the dragon whose deeds may have inspired early legends of Dol Arrah, or if you believe that the Sovereigns are and always have been true gods, may have been Dol Arrah's first champion in the world.

Seven centuries ago, he escapes from his shard prison, but is still partially bound by secondary magics; he is trapped in the region of Thrane until his power can grow. He draws dark forces to himself and lets his shadow fall across the land, and it's a terrible time. This comes to an end when Tira Miron - then a paladin of Dol Arrah - hears the call of the Silver Flame, and is visited by the couatl set to watch Bel Shalor. It takes time for her to acquire the skills, tools, and allies she needs to overcome Bel Shalor and his minions; think of this as her epic destiny, and just like a PC, it took some time for her to achieve it. She had to strengthen her bond to the Flame so she could fully channel its power. She had to find one of the shards of Bel Shalor's prison, so it could be used to forge her holy greatsword. She had to seek out allies mentioned in Prophecy, and find ways to strengthen them all against Bel Shalor's corrupting influence. And so on, and so on. But eventually she and the couatl faced Bel Shalor and defeated him, and sacrificed both their spirits to create the new prison that binds him to the Flame. In the process, Tira became the Voice of the Flame, an intermediary between mortal and Flame that allows people to more easily touch its power or hear its call. The Flame has been around since the Age of Demons - as shown by the Shulassakar and Ghaash'kala - but Tira's sacrifice brought it closer to humanity (and it's entirely possible the Ghaash'kala have a similar sacrifice and voice in THEIR history). The drawback is that the same connection allows the weakened Bel Shalor to whisper to the faithful and try to lead them astray... again, leading to the idea that this could have been his plan all along.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by AvonRekaes:

Keith, I just remembered Katashka, the Gatekeeper. I wasn't a subscriber to Dungeon during the Age of Worms adventure path, which is where I think the first mention of Katashka was published, so I'm not too sure of his in-setting lore. Do some sages identify him with the Keeper like they do Bel Shalor with the Shadow? Seems interesting to me if there is one or more Rajahs that scholars believe to be the Dark Six deities.

Would be an interesting alternative to the mythos of the split pantheon, where the Sovereigns and the Six used to be a united family. If the Sovereigns were Dragons and the Six were Rajahs, they were probably always at each others throats.
(Though I guess you can call them cousins by saying Rajahs are the children of Khyber and Dragons Siberys+Eberron)