D&D 5E The Slaughter House: How dropping attributes will improve DnD

[Umbran]

Yes most stuff in the game is a personal preference. But with the touted modularity why not make stats a module?

I might turn around and say, why not make *lack* of stats a module?

The answer is that "just make it a module" is a glib statement, and the presence of stats (or lack thereof) is probably too central to the game to make into a module.

 

[billd91]

There are games without stats (at least as D&D knows them) out there - but here's the rub - they're not D&D. Believe it or not, there is a substantial group of people out here who still prefer to roll our stats and generate a number on the 3-18 curve.

 

[MJS]

I think the point is confused - the OP seems to advocate dropping stat modifiers,
not stats themselves, which is indeed how D&D is originally designed. I think there are good reasons for this, and it shouldn't be too hard to drop said modifiers in B/X or even AD&D, if being used without skill rules.

a +1 for a 14 is so nu-skool : )

 

[Alzrius]

I think that the issue here is that questions of "what makes the game (or at least my game) better?" are completely different from "what is D&D?"

This is important, because it drives home the fact that there can, quite easily, come a point where a positive answer to the former question is a destructive one to the latter.

Leaving aside all sorts of personal anecdotes about what the game feels like, what it is tends to be the particular aspects of its rules (and trade dress, and intellectual properties - but for this discussion, it's mostly the rules) that become well-known to the point of being so associated with the game that they become integral to its popular identity. You can eliminate THAC0 because it never reached that level - the six ability scores are something else again.

Improving the game is (at least, I suspect, to the designers) no good if the end product isn't "recognizable" as D&D.

 

[Incenjucar]

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but I feel that attributes need to become add-ons to a character rather than the determinant of whether or not they can function. Each attribute needs to provide a distinct and equally-useful bonus to any character, though specialized characters will naturally gravitate towards specific attributes, but because of their build rather than their class.

I would love to see dump stats designed out of the game - you should always wish you had more of ANY stat, even when you need to make a sacrifice for your focus.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

After the past few years' gleeful romp to the abattoir with D&D and the results of trying to make sacred hamburger, I wouldn't think that sort of radical change is even in the cards as far as WotC is concerned.

Sacred hamburger, as it turns out, spoils much faster than was originally thought.

 

[Meatboy]

[MENTION=6747144]MJS[/MENTION]

I'm really trying to advocate specificity in the game rules. In dnd power is tied to level. Higher level more power. Then problem is stats modifiers basically toss a monkey wrench into this.

What's more powerful a level 1 goblin or a level 1 orc? Despite both being of supposedly equal footing an orc is more powerful simply because of attributes. So level stops being an accurate indicator of ability which is how we got Challenge Ratings.
I feel this lack of accuracy leads to many of the problems in crafting a balanced game. especially today where games are more focused on campaigns or exploring character concepts. In Ye Olden Days having a good or bad stat had less impact on the game simply due to the fact that your character was almost certainly going to die.

 

[Meatboy]

Sacred hamburger, as it turns out, spoils much faster than was originally thought.

For me at least it spoilt because it was tried to make explicit what was once only implicit.

 

[Jester David]

This may ruffle some feathers across all spectrums of play, but I have had an epiphany of late. I believe that adherence to attributes as they are now and by association their modifiers is a chain that is shackling the game of DnD. And I feel it contributes to problems like min/maxing, numbers bloat, and unbalancing of the game in general.

As of 3e and 4e attributes have become vital to the game. Where once they were kept some what in check by lower limits or by generally not being applicable to most characters. With the introduction of skills and the save/defenses mechanic having high stats, not just in your main attribute but in secondary attributes, can be the difference between being effective to the group or being dead.
In terms of effectiveness increasing your attributes was at least, if not more effective than, gaining a level. For example: In 3e a fighter with 18 strength is effectively 4 levels better at fighting in melee than a character with a score of 10. In 4e this is somewhat lessened with the introduction of powers, but having a high score in your main attribute still leads to increased effectiveness. Combined with random rolls or even buying stats we get players who will neglect certain stats in favor of being more effective in their chosen area. In effect the way stats are now we have two power scales in the game. One tied to level the other tied to attributes.

I agree. 3e and 4e put a lot of focus on this and the numbers went too high too fast.

My solution is to get rid of attributes and their modifiers. We can still have the traditional six but instead of a numerical scale that rewards players for getting big numbers as soon as possible. I'd suggest an on/off trait system whereby characters would get a flat bonus, or maybe something tied to level. So instead of a player doing what the can to ensure that their wizard is as smart as possible they can simply check the box next to intelligent and reap some mechanical benefits. The few things tied to a stat but not a skill or something for combat, namely weight allowance and encumbrance, could easily be handled by backgrounds and size.

This is hard because the numbers are well known. Even to people who don't play D&D the idea of "18 Strength" means something. It's a cultural zeitgeist of sorts, which makes it really hard to remove.

 

[Bluenose]

There are games without stats (at least as D&D knows them) out there - but here's the rub - they're not D&D. Believe it or not, there is a substantial group of people out here who still prefer to roll our stats and generate a number on the 3-18 curve.

I know perfectly well that removing the stats won't happen, but an argument that they have to stay because some people roll them has a rather obvious retort. Roll the dice to get your modifier instead of the raw stat. It's not as if the stat itself is used for very much, while the modifier is used all the time.