The sorcerer as a unique class (with bloodlines - see post #1)

[Kerrick]

Holy crap, been a long time since I have seen that name. Heya Kerrick.

Heya. I've been around, just not very active.

Yes, and Sor/Wiz spells account for around 300 or so. It's not particularly more difficult than it is for the PHB Sorcerer.

True, that.

Plus, you're not stifling the player's creativity. Lets them make up their own bloodline if they want.

Yeah. I'm all about flexibility - I've made a couple PrCs with "paths" similar to the ranger's, and they've worked out well. Do they cast divine or arcane spells? I've been trying to figure this out since I started... I'm thinking about access to PrCs (and spellcasting progressions gained therefrom). I suppose saying they can do both wouldn't be too overpowered.

Hmm.... so we require this class to rely on NPC's, where every other spellcasting class in the game can learn their spells without NPC's? That kinda removes the "self taught" archetype, doesn't it? Just limit gaining new spells known to when the character levels, and don't worry about the requirements.

Yeah, good call.

Okay, and now if there's a Wizard in the party (or the Sorcerer picks up a Cohort), too, over the course of a week, the Sorcerer can completely swap out his spells known at his top three tiers of spells. He's having his cake, and eating it, too (much like a UA spell-points Wizard, although not quite as much).

Is this a good thing or a bad thing? I also noticed that I worded it badly. It should be:

"A sorcerer can purge a spell from his memory at any time as a standard action. If he successfully identifies the spell and has a slot of the proper level available, he can place that spell in his memory as a spell known. It doesn't become available for casting until he rests, however; it takes time for him to learn the nuances of the new spell and properly process it."

Was referring to another character in the party, not a multiclass character. Multiclassing with multiple primary spellcasting classes isn't something an optimizer does.

See, that's one of my faults as a designer - I'm a roleplayer, not an optimizer. I can usually catch the broken combos, but I often miss things that make a class underpowered.

Quite honestly, for something you can only do once per round as a full-round action, even 2d6+Class Level isn't broken (except, perhaps, at 1st or 2nd level).

It's a standard action, actually. It's got limited usage (3 + Cha), so upping the damage output to 2d6+1/2 class level wouldn't be too overpowered; the first heritage level, at L5, provides an increase in base die (to 2d6), and then he gets one at 3rd and 5th too (2d8 and 3d6).

I skip caffeine on Saturdays; I was tired. Now that you mention it, though, is this intended as a replacement for spell level costs, or in addition to? If it's a replacement, it makes some sense (Sorcerer zaps out an Empowered Fireball at 6th level, but soaks 12 points of damage in the process); if it's in addition to, it's probably a bad idea (why, exactly, should the Sorcerer pay through the nose for something everyone else gets for free?).

Replacement, definitely - and they cast it as a standard action. This is part of the reason for the increased HD. It would actually be 4 points of damage, not 12 - it's 2/level the feat adjusts the spell, not 2/adjusted spell level. Doing it your way might be better, though, given the double bonus (faster and no adjustment). I think I'll give them two options:

You can cast a spell with metamagic as a standard action and no level adjustment, but take damage, OR

You can cast it with metamagic as a full-round action, with the level adjustment, and take no damage.

That way, the sorcerer can blow off metamagicked spells without the risk of killing himself. Taking the extra time and using the higher-level slot simulates more care in channeling the energy and allowing room for it, whereas doing it quick and dirty is like sticking your thumb over the end of a hose - you're forcing the same amount of water through a smaller opening (or a lower-level slot), which gives it more force and burns out neurons.

 

[Jack Simth]

Heya. I've been around, just not very active.


True, that.


Yeah. I'm all about flexibility - I've made a couple PrCs with "paths" similar to the ranger's, and they've worked out well. Do they cast divine or arcane spells? I've been trying to figure this out since I started... I'm thinking about access to PrCs (and spellcasting progressions gained therefrom). I suppose saying they can do both wouldn't be too overpowered.

Well, there are some significant differences between arcane and divine - the biggest of which being arcane spell failure. Wizards have a better spell list than clerics or Druids, and so they need some limitations - hence Arcane Spell Failure. The Sorcerer needs to be an arcane caster in this regard.

Yeah, good call.


Is this a good thing or a bad thing? I also noticed that I worded it badly. It should be:

"A sorcerer can purge a spell from his memory at any time as a standard action. If he successfully identifies the spell and has a slot of the proper level available, he can place that spell in his memory as a spell known. It doesn't become available for casting until he rests, however; it takes time for him to learn the nuances of the new spell and properly process it."

Bad thing, in the "easily overpowered" sense.

See, the PHB Sorcerer has lots of short-term flexibility, but almost no long-term flexibility; the PHB wizard has almost no short-term flexibility, but lots of long-term flexibility. The ability to swap out spells known easily grants the Sorcerer long-term flexibility, in addition to the short-term flexibility. To a goodly extent, flexibility IS power; when you increase flexibility in the class, it's a power boost, and you need to decrease it some other way.

See, that's one of my faults as a designer - I'm a roleplayer, not an optimizer. I can usually catch the broken combos, but I often miss things that make a class underpowered.


It's a standard action, actually. It's got limited usage (3 + Cha), so upping the damage output to 2d6+1/2 class level wouldn't be too overpowered; the first heritage level, at L5, provides an increase in base die (to 2d6), and then he gets one at 3rd and 5th too (2d8 and 3d6).

Move action to load, standard action to fire, and you can't hold it for more than 3 rounds safely, and you can't hold it for longer than 10 rounds at all. With a per-day limit, 1d6 per class level isn't broken (it's what most one per round damaging effects scale on). Without a per-day limit, 1d6 per 2 class levels is about standard. My suggestion would be to replace the ability with one of the Reserve feats (or something similar) with a clause that lets the Sorcerer base the effect on the highest available spell slot, rather than the highest available spell of the matching type.

This way, you get the Doppleganger bloodline who can change minor aspects of his body at any time (Minor Shapeshift reserve feat); you get the Sorcerer with the Fire or Demonic bloodline you can zap out puffs of flame at whim (Fiery Burst reserve feat). You get the Sorcerer with the Angelic bloodline who can cure wounds with a touch (Touch of Healing). You get the Sorcerer with one of the colored dragons as a bloodline who can send out a burst of that dragon's element at whim (any one of the direct damage reserve feats). You also get the Sorcerer who is so in tune with magic they can just look at something and see if it's magical (Magic Sensitive Reserve Feat), and so on.

Likewise, it just becomes a bonus feat - each time you do the ritual, you make some change to your appearance, and pick up another one.

Replacement, definitely - and they cast it as a standard action. This is part of the reason for the increased HD. It would actually be 4 points of damage, not 12 - it's 2/level the feat adjusts the spell, not 2/adjusted spell level. Doing it your way might be better, though, given the double bonus (faster and no adjustment). I think I'll give them two options:

You can cast a spell with metamagic as a standard action and no level adjustment, but take damage, OR

You can cast it with metamagic as a full-round action, with the level adjustment, and take no damage.

That way, the sorcerer can blow off metamagicked spells without the risk of killing himself. Taking the extra time and using the higher-level slot simulates more care in channeling the energy and allowing room for it, whereas doing it quick and dirty is like sticking your thumb over the end of a hose - you're forcing the same amount of water through a smaller opening (or a lower-level slot), which gives it more force and burns out neurons.

Cool enough.

 

[Kerrick]

Well, there are some significant differences between arcane and divine - the biggest of which being arcane spell failure. Wizards have a better spell list than clerics or Druids, and so they need some limitations - hence Arcane Spell Failure. The Sorcerer needs to be an arcane caster in this regard.

Yeah... there are already two full-progression divine casters, and only one arcane... and since tapping into the source of magic is generally considered more arcane than divine... arcane it is.

See, the PHB Sorcerer has lots of short-term flexibility, but almost no long-term flexibility; the PHB wizard has almost no short-term flexibility, but lots of long-term flexibility. The ability to swap out spells known easily grants the Sorcerer long-term flexibility, in addition to the short-term flexibility. To a goodly extent, flexibility IS power; when you increase flexibility in the class, it's a power boost, and you need to decrease it some other way.

I see your point. So... how does a sorcerer swap spells? I'm so not doing the "once per two levels" crap - that's just absurd. Maybe one spell of each level per character level? It gives them *some* flexibility, but not nearly as much as a wizard.

Move action to load, standard action to fire, and you can't hold it for more than 3 rounds safely, and you can't hold it for longer than 10 rounds at all. With a per-day limit, 1d6 per class level isn't broken (it's what most one per round damaging effects scale on). Without a per-day limit, 1d6 per 2 class levels is about standard. My suggestion would be to replace the ability with one of the Reserve feats (or something similar) with a clause that lets the Sorcerer base the effect on the highest available spell slot, rather than the highest available spell of the matching type.

I'm not familiar with reserve feats at all, and I want to keep this OGC in any case. Using the concept of bloodlines is toeing the line, I know, but since I don't have access to the actual mechanics, I can claim parallel development.

There are some heritage feats in PHB II... one is Celestial Sorcerer Lance - you sacrifice a spell slot to shoot a bolt of radiant energy that deals 1d8/spell level, and there's a Reflex save for half damage. 1d6/class level seems a bit much, even at 3 + Cha. Figure at L20, you'd be shooting off 8-9 of those, at 20d6 each That's a lot of damage. I could see doing 1d6/2 levels, but then I wouldn't have anything to add to it in the heritage abilities.

 

[Jack Simth]

Yeah... there are already two full-progression divine casters, and only one arcane... and since tapping into the source of magic is generally considered more arcane than divine... arcane it is.


I see your point. So... how does a sorcerer swap spells? I'm so not doing the "once per two levels" crap - that's just absurd. Maybe one spell of each level per character level? It gives them *some* flexibility, but not nearly as much as a wizard.

Basing the changing of spells around leveling isn't a bad idea... but do remember that, for a full caster, flexibility is power.

I'm not familiar with reserve feats at all, and I want to keep this OGC in any case. Using the concept of bloodlines is toeing the line, I know, but since I don't have access to the actual mechanics, I can claim parallel development.

Actually, the Bloodlines came from Unearthed Arcana, which IS OGC - Here.

As for the reserve feats, they take quite a few different forms, but basically, if you've got a spell that meets a particular set of criteriea, you can do a small something that's related as often as you want (with the effect based off the level of the spell that fits) and a slight boost to caster level (or something else) when using such effects. Fiery Burst, for instance, gives the ability to make a 5-foot burst of flame at a range of 30 feet, reflex half, 1d6 per spell level of the highest level Fire spell currently available to cast, and a +1 Competence bonus to caster level when casting Fire spells.

Oh - and as long as you reference where the feat is located, rather than listing it's text, there's no violation. You then put in exceptions for how you want it to work - e.g., in each case, the effect is based on the highest unused spell slot, rather than the highest level spell of the type specified in the reserve feat.

There are some heritage feats in PHB II... one is Celestial Sorcerer Lance - you sacrifice a spell slot to shoot a bolt of radiant energy that deals 1d8/spell level, and there's a Reflex save for half damage. 1d6/class level seems a bit much, even at 3 + Cha. Figure at L20, you'd be shooting off 8-9 of those, at 20d6 each That's a lot of damage. I could see doing 1d6/2 levels, but then I wouldn't have anything to add to it in the heritage abilities.

It *looks* like a lot of damage, but it's not; it only averages 70 points of damage. Seriously. Consider stuff that's CR 20 - Black Dragon Wyrm: 459 hp. You'll be at it for a while. Ancient Brass: 387 hp. Balor: 290 HP. Pit Fiend: 225 hp + Regeneration. You're going to need three or four hits to take down even the lowliest of these... whereas Finger of Death or Wail of the Banshee has a reasonable chance of simply taking them down.

 

[Kerrick]

Actually, the Bloodlines came from Unearthed Arcana, which IS OGC - Here.

I could've sworn it was in UA... I checked d20srd.org and my friend's copy of the book, and I couldn't find it.

Fiery Burst, for instance, gives the ability to make a 5-foot burst of flame at a range of 30 feet, reflex half, 1d6 per spell level of the highest level Fire spell currently available to cast, and a +1 Competence bonus to caster level when casting Fire spells.

Interesting. On a side note, how do they get away with reprinting that?

Oh - and as long as you reference where the feat is located, rather than listing it's text, there's no violation. You then put in exceptions for how you want it to work - e.g., in each case, the effect is based on the highest unused spell slot, rather than the highest level spell of the type specified in the reserve feat.

Mm. Didn't know that. I'll stick with what I've got though, so players don't have to reference some other book they may or may not have.

It *looks* like a lot of damage, but it's not; it only averages 70 points of damage.

I guess playtesting would tell if it really were balanced or not. 9th level spells cap out at 25d6, so it's pretty well in keeping with those, and since they only get 3 of them, it's a slight power boost.

 

[Jack Simth]

I could've sworn it was in UA... I checked d20srd.org and my friend's copy of the book, and I couldn't find it.

It's not part of the SRD, but it is OGL (and a lot of places that host the SRD also host the OGL portions of UA). You'd want to read the section in UA on that for the full details.

Interesting. On a side note, how do they get away with reprinting that?

First guess is that it's a small sample as part of a review (specifically permitted in the general case copyright law; the book reviewer in the newspaper needs pay no royalties to JK Rowling when quoting a line of text from Harry Potter and the Order of the Pheonix when reviewing it) - second guess is an advertising sampler deal with the publisher, seeing as how they've got a link to a place where you can buy the book(s) it's in for each and every thing where they list detailed text.

Mm. Didn't know that. I'll stick with what I've got though, so players don't have to reference some other book they may or may not have.

Fair enough.

I guess playtesting would tell if it really were balanced or not. 9th level spells cap out at 25d6, so it's pretty well in keeping with those, and since they only get 3 of them, it's a slight power boost.

Short Answer:
There's much better things to do with your standard action in the middle of battle than apply direct damage. The stuff you'll be hitting at that point is unlikely to go away in less than four hits of 20d6 direct damage (you can actually get 32d6 total damage to one creature with a 9th level spell at caster level 17 - see Meteor Swarm - but it still pales in comparison to Wail of the Banshee's one-spell kill on 17+ creatures in a 40 foot radius spread).

 

[Kerrick]

It's not part of the SRD, but it is OGL (and a lot of places that host the SRD also host the OGL portions of UA). You'd want to read the section in UA on that for the full details.

Everything in UA is OGC, so it's included on d20srd.org. I found the bloodlines section - it's under Races.

I'm including v 1.1 of the sorcerer, sans fiendish bloodline. Only some minor changes here:

Added 1 spell known for 5th-7th level at 20 (since they only had 3), and the table's been fixed.

Changed magic sense and arcane sight (now greater magic sense), flavorwise and mechanically - now they're only similar to detect magic and arcane sight, but more like the magic sight from literature.

There's an innate power listed at 20th level, but I haven't come up with anything yet - it's a placeholder.

 

[Jack Simth]

Okay - unless you go overboard with the Innate Powers or Heritage abilities (which you don't seem want to do, from what I've seen of your bloodlines so far), my impression is that you've now got something that's sitting roughly between the PHB Sorcerer and the PHB Wizard on the power curve.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

For the record, there are a lot of feats out there called "Bloodline" feats, and they're all over the place in terms of mechanics. Besides the ones mentioned above, there are some in the Planar Handbook which in no way resemble those in UA.

My personal favorites, though, are the ones in the DCv1- the mechanics are uniform, simple and sensible- actually not unlike Clerical Domains. Choose a PC background for your spontaneous caster- say...having a sentient plant in the ancestry- and you get to add a certain group of spells to your spell list. If your ancestor was a Demon, OTOH, you gain a different set of spells.

In addion, there are feats that cascade from those feats that give you additional abilities.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

So far so good Kerrick. Not everyone has MS Office, so I PDFed document.

Hope you don't mind.