The Spatzworld Exotic Material System

[Spatzimaus]

*I actually ruled that basic stuff like bronze and iron have a negative craft mod - -2 for bronze and -1 for iron, since we're using steel as the baseline.

Actually, so did I. Bronze is -1, I think, and Bone is -3 or -4, with iron/crude steel as the +0 baseline. There are a few others, but generally the players are expected not to use them; they're for "primitive" NPC races.

What do you mean by "the material's size", though? Do you mean "How much of the item is made from X"?

Right. If you're assuming an item's size affects its DC, then my point was to call that component X.

You mean, they don't worry about where the material came from or what its properties (softness, ductility, etc.) are, just how it works vs. DR?

Not quite. I think it goes like this:
Silver: bypasses DR/silver
Cold Iron: bypasses DR/cold iron
Mithral: weighs less
Darksteel: deals +1 electrical damage
Adamantium: bypasses DR/adamantium and deals +2 magical damage

One unfortunate aspect of this is that each magic item is limited to 3 bonuses (+5 is one, Holy is another, etc.), and those +damage boosts or weight reductions count as one of the three, but the DR bypasses don't. So, you're actually better off enchanting a Silver or Cold Iron weapon as your primary.

I kind of like the thought of someone with a solid silver sword not being able to use it in every combat unless it were magically hardened (which is why I came up with the silversteel spell).

The difference being the phrase "a solid silver sword"; as I mentioned earlier, I view a "silver sword" as being a steel that mixes in silver, or something similar. It's not pure silver.
Also, note that in AD&D, they had a material called "Silver-Iron" that mixed Silver with Cold Iron to bypass BOTH DRs, so it's clearly possible. We've ported that over as well, although it's pretty expensive.

Depends how you split Primary and Seconday.

It varies with the armor type. Examples of the three possible ways to do it:
Chain Shirt: Primary (Flexible) is the part covering the critical body parts (torso, head), while the Secondary (Soft) covers the arms and legs.
Studded Leather: Primary (Soft) covers the entire body, while the Secondary (Flexible) is just mixed in.
Scale: Primary (Soft) covers the entire body, while the Secondary (Hard) is patched on top over many areas.
Generally speaking, the armors are something like 40% Primary, 30% Secondary, and 30% Fittings.
The question was, how well does Mithral work for weight reduction? If you require both Primary and Secondary to be made of mithral to reduce weight category, then only one Medium armor (Chainmail) could qualify, since the other two mix metal with leather.
If you allow Primary mithral to reduce, then Breastplates can become light, but Scale armor can't. If you allow either to reduce when made from mithral, then almost every heavy armor (or chainmail) will put mithral in the Secondary and use something harder (like adamantium) in the Primary.

 

[Kerrick]

Right. If you're assuming an item's size affects its DC, then my point was to call that component X.

Ah, I see.

One unfortunate aspect of this is that each magic item is limited to 3 bonuses (+5 is one, Holy is another, etc.), and those +damage boosts or weight reductions count as one of the three, but the DR bypasses don't. So, you're actually better off enchanting a Silver or Cold Iron weapon as your primary.

Oh, you're talking about NWN2. I only played that once, was sadly disappointed, and haven't touched it since. I didn't really mess around with the weapon/armor crafting thing, though it was a cool idea.

The difference being the phrase "a solid silver sword"; as I mentioned earlier, I view a "silver sword" as being a steel that mixes in silver, or something similar. It's not pure silver.

Yeah.. I think I ruled one time (back in 2E) that it had to have around 40% silver to be effective. It makes for a slightly weaker blade, but not nearly as weak as a pure silver one.

Also, note that in AD&D, they had a material called "Silver-Iron" that mixed Silver with Cold Iron to bypass BOTH DRs, so it's clearly possible. We've ported that over as well, although it's pretty expensive.

Hard to make, too, I'd imagine.

If you allow Primary mithral to reduce, then Breastplates can become light, but Scale armor can't. If you allow either to reduce when made from mithral, then almost every heavy armor (or chainmail) will put mithral in the Secondary and use something harder (like adamantium) in the Primary.

What about having the mithril add only a portion of its total weight if it's not the primary? It's effectively a "weight reduction", but it doesn't reduce the armor's weight class. I actually like this idea better - just because you reduce the weight of, say, plate mail, doesn't make it any less bulky or hard to move in without special enchantments (that freedom thing you mentioned) - you're encased in metal, and that stuff limits movement. So you can have plate mail that weighs 20 pounds, has a lesser ACP and possibly ASF, and more max Dex, and but is still considered "heavy armor" for movement and AP purposes.

 

[Bayonet_Chris]

Supply and Demand

/slight thread hijack...


I would like to see this system. Could you perhaps post it somewhere? Thanks.


/we now return you to your regularly scheduled thread...

BobbyMac, I'll try to post it tonight when I have more time. (After the kids go to bed). EDIT: OK, here's the link.

Yeah... In our system, crafting times are all set - a simple weapon takes 2 days, a martial weapon takes 5 days, etc.; the DM can apply an optional modifier (based on the item's size/complexity) if he wishes. A failed check means you lose a day (at least); success by 10 or more means you get more work done, and gain a day (or 2 days, if you're doing the check for a week. This gives them a little more incentive to make the d20 roll instead of just taking 10, makes them actually want to try using some of the higher-end materials, and simulates a master crafter making simple stuff much faster than a novice ("Masterwork daggers! Bah, I can do those in my sleep!") ...

Oooh... I like that idea. Right now, DCs are figured on a combination of the item's size and complexity - a generic small difficult item (a gold and diamond tiara) is DC 18. The only problem I can see here is how to simulate small, complex items being more difficult to make - a pocketwatch will be just as hard to make as a grandfather clock because of all the tiny springs, gears, and whatnot, despite there being less to work with.

Well, if you think about this, making one of the modifiers "complexity" removes the artificial distinction between simple and martial weapons. Simple weapons are ones that are easy to construct (or, in other words, easy for peasants to get their hands on or low compelxity) while martial weapons are ones that only rich people can afford or soldiers are given (again, from rich people, usually higher compelxity).

Anyone can get a club or even a quarterstaff. Most simple polearms were basically long sticks with basic implements attached to them. A castle-forged sword, however, it not something that your average, run-of-the-mill peasant would be able to afford or be able to create on his own. A sword is not a difficult weapon for someone to pick up and use. I think maybe the weapon group rules would be a better fit when you hash all of this out.

 

[Spatzimaus]

What about having the mithril add only a portion of its total weight if it's not the primary? It's effectively a "weight reduction", but it doesn't reduce the armor's weight class.

Material weight multipliers apply regardless. Take full plate, for instance; A Hard Primary is 20 lbs, a Hard Secondary is 14 lbs, and Heavy Fittings add 24 lbs. (This adds to 58 lbs; the finished product is 50 lbs, because some material is lost along the way.)
So if you're using a material with a x0.5 weight multiplier (mithral is 0.6 for us, actually), then a Primary would be 10 lbs, Secondary 7 lbs, and the Fittings don't change (they're not made of the mithral), except that if it's now a medium armor, it'd use medium Fittings (only 16 lbs).

The problem is that while the weight class-reducing effects of mithral are probably the single most abuseable part of this system, it's not something I want to ditch quickly. For one thing, I use the same mechanism in the other direction: Elephant Hide, for instance, is a leather that INCREASES the weight class of the armor (moving from Light to Medium adds 2 points of DR). I've been tempted to remove that ability from Mithral and limit it to True Mithral (DC +18), since that's a lot less abuseable. For now, I'll just say that the weight class reduction only applies if BOTH halves are made from a material with that ability (which keeps Celestial Chainmail and Dwarven Plate, but effectively removes the mithral BP)

 

[Kerrick]

Well, if you think about this, making one of the modifiers "complexity" removes the artificial distinction between simple and martial weapons. Simple weapons are ones that are easy to construct (or, in other words, easy for peasants to get their hands on or low compelxity) while martial weapons are ones that only rich people can afford or soldiers are given (again, from rich people, usually higher compelxity).

oh, I've already got that. I have five categories: Simple, Moderate, Difficult, Complex, and Very Complex. Simple weapons are Simple (duh); martial weapons are Moderate, and exotics are Difficult (exception: bastard swords and whips are treated as martial weapons for crafting, and any racial weapons are treated as martial - a dwarf making a dwarven waraxe treats it as moderate). I thought I had a link to our crafting system somewhere in this thread, but I guess I didn't, so there it is, if you want to take a look.

Anyone can get a club or even a quarterstaff. Most simple polearms were basically long sticks with basic implements attached to them.

I hadn't thought about polearms being simple, but really, a true "polearm" (as opposed to a knife tied to a pole) would be a martial weapon, as it requires a little more craftsmanship.

So if you're using a material with a x0.5 weight multiplier (mithral is 0.6 for us, actually), then a Primary would be 10 lbs, Secondary 7 lbs, and the Fittings don't change (they're not made of the mithral), except that if it's now a medium armor, it'd use medium Fittings (only 16 lbs).

Curses, foiled again. Another idea shot down in flames. I'm going to use this for my system, though, so it's totally in vain.

For one thing, I use the same mechanism in the other direction: Elephant Hide, for instance, is a leather that INCREASES the weight class of the armor (moving from Light to Medium adds 2 points of DR).

Ooh, I hadn't thought of that either - I can apply that to bulette hide, or the heavier (older age category) dragonscale armors. Cool idea.

I've been tempted to remove that ability from Mithral and limit it to True Mithral (DC +18), since that's a lot less abuseable.

I thought of something yesterday after I wrote that last post and I was hashing things out in my head. I'm going to keep the 10 levels of mastercrafting, but have the materials equate to a given level (equal to half the Craft DC). They can also be crafted up to three levels better - so the high-end stuff (orichulum) can't be made any better because it's so good already, but the low-end stuff (steel) can be made a little better, within the limits of the material. Even materials like bronze, in this system, could get a +1 masterwork bonus, but anything with -3 or below (bone, for instance) couldn't.

The point of all this is to suggest that your True Mithril could be just +3 masterwork mithril - only a master smith would be able to forge it pure enough and make the armor well enough to get the full benefits of the weight reduction. And as above, so below - your high-end elephant hide armor could possibly be made the same way, where a master leatherworker could keep all the benefits but make it lighter weight.

(BTW, with mastercrafting, you get a bonus equal to the level, which you can apply to a weapon's attack/damage, or half the armor's bonus to max Dex or ACP - for example, if you make a +4 sword, you could apply 1 point to attack and 3 to damage, or any combination thereof equalling 4; for armor, you apply 2 to max Dex or ACP. This is going to need a little work, though.)

 

[Kerrick]

Another thing I found out: the armor DCs in the PHB crafting system are too low. As it stands now, the DCs for all items range from 5 (very simple stuff like horseshoes) to 20 (masterwork items). A 1st level character with 1 rank in Craft (armorsmithing) and a few good rolls could make plate mail, which is totally wrong, to my mind. Hell, a 1st level PC with 3 ranks, Skill Focus, and/or a decent Int do it by taking 10! That's totally absurd, IMO, so I changed the armor DCs to 10+2*AC bonus. This puts the light stuff at DC 12-18, medium at DC 16-20, and heavy at DC 22-26. This follows the logic that a novice armorer should start with simple armors - padded, leather, studded - and work his way up. Only an experienced armorer should be able to make heavy armor with any degree of consistency in quality.

This also increases the DCs for heavy armor made from exotic materials - adamantine plate mail, for instance, is DC 40, which is a lot closer to where it should be - only a master armorer with a lot of ranks and a lot of experience should be able to make something like that.