Hey guys, i want to approach my DM with the idea of using a spellpool ability for the sorcerers, becuase i think they are underpowered, though they can be offensive powerhouses, they arent that great in my opinion. I gain nothing by having him impliment this, cause i am a 11th level wizard (about to complete Heart of Night Fang Spire, at Golthius's doorstep)..... Any way i heard that the people were using the psionics chart for that stuff, but i dont have access to that book. How would you give benifits for a high charisma score and what not.. how much does each spell cost per level... if you could post that, that would be great,,,, and any other variations you have heard or thought of..
The Spell Pool for Sorcerers
- Thread starter Urza82
- Start date
AEG's Magic has the best Spell Point system I have seen to date. It is done for every class individually, to make it balanced with the normal spellcasting level of the class and keep the relative casting power balanced from class to class.
This information sourced from Chapter 15: OGL
Sorcerer: (SP = Spell Points, MSL = Maximum Spell Level castable at the given level)
Level...SP.....MSL
1.........2.......1
2.........6.......1
3.........9.......1
4.........15.....2
5.........22.....2
6.........31.....3
7.........42.....3
8.........54.....4
9.........67.....4
10.......82.....5
11.......99.....5
12.......117...6
13.......136...6
14.......157...7
15.......180...7
16.......204...8
17.......226...8
18.......253...9
19.......282...9
20.......312...10*
* Only for Spells with Metamagic feats
Cost to Cast:
SL = Spell level
Base = Base Cost in Spell Points for that spell level.
Your "Caster Level" is only used to determine Duration.
All other Caster Level dependant effects are cast at the MINIMUM REQUIRED CASTER LEVEL for determining effects. If you wish to cast the spell at a higher caster level it costs more Spell Points at the rate of +1 Spell Point per Caster Level (up to you current Caster Level - NEVER BEYOND).
Example: Fireball requires a 6th level caster level and thus does 6d6 damage for 5 SP's. If you are 10th level and want a 10d6 fireball, it will cost you 9 SP's (base cost of 5th for a 3rd level spell, +4 Caster Levels above the minimum to cast the spell).
SL.....Base
0.......Special
1.......1
2.......3
3.......5
4.......7
5.......9
6.......11
7.......13
8.......15
9.......17
10*......19
Special: 3/day for free. For all beyond the 1st 3 = 1 SP each.
This information sourced from Chapter 15: OGL
Sorcerer: (SP = Spell Points, MSL = Maximum Spell Level castable at the given level)
Level...SP.....MSL
1.........2.......1
2.........6.......1
3.........9.......1
4.........15.....2
5.........22.....2
6.........31.....3
7.........42.....3
8.........54.....4
9.........67.....4
10.......82.....5
11.......99.....5
12.......117...6
13.......136...6
14.......157...7
15.......180...7
16.......204...8
17.......226...8
18.......253...9
19.......282...9
20.......312...10*
* Only for Spells with Metamagic feats
Cost to Cast:
SL = Spell level
Base = Base Cost in Spell Points for that spell level.
Your "Caster Level" is only used to determine Duration.
All other Caster Level dependant effects are cast at the MINIMUM REQUIRED CASTER LEVEL for determining effects. If you wish to cast the spell at a higher caster level it costs more Spell Points at the rate of +1 Spell Point per Caster Level (up to you current Caster Level - NEVER BEYOND).
Example: Fireball requires a 6th level caster level and thus does 6d6 damage for 5 SP's. If you are 10th level and want a 10d6 fireball, it will cost you 9 SP's (base cost of 5th for a 3rd level spell, +4 Caster Levels above the minimum to cast the spell).
SL.....Base
0.......Special
1.......1
2.......3
3.......5
4.......7
5.......9
6.......11
7.......13
8.......15
9.......17
10*......19
Special: 3/day for free. For all beyond the 1st 3 = 1 SP each.
Last edited:
Eldorian
First Post
That is a disgustingly large number of spells per day. A level 18 sorcerer could turn out amost 15 9th level spells, assuming no bonus magic points per day due to cha, if that system lacks it. If the system has bonus points, then, given the assumed typical 1/4 power per fight, your sorcerer be able to cast four 9th level spells per fight. 4 wails of the banshee... you want to design every encounter such that the sorcerer is incapable of killing everything in 2 wails of the banshee, yet alone 4? If you want a system with points, play a psion, or at least modify it not to have so many magic points at high levels and so few at low. 2 first level spells per day at first level? thats stupid. I feel sorry for that sorcerer. Wizards got it so much better. Personally, I think that if you made a psion that replaced his power list with sorcerer spells, eliminated variable effects based on level (except perhaps minor ones such as duration, but i'm in favor of removing even that, and making him take extend spell to increase it), gave him the same number of power points per day as a psion, and skills as a telepath(magic for psionic types), and the psion's ability to use metamagics without having to full round cast (which i think sucked for sorcerers). Give him bonus metamagic progression like a wizard (in favor of increasing wizard skills as well). Then, you'd basically have a character who cast his spells spontanously about as many times per day as a wizard, but much more flexiblity in the way sorcerers are supposed to be flexable.
Eldorian Antar
Eldorian Antar
Lets examine your response, since I really think you need to examine things more closely before shooting comments off the cuff.
Aside from that – its not MY system, it is a published system by “AEG”.
Originally posted by Eldorian
The inherent issue with ALL Point Systems is that it SEEMS to be a lot of spells and in effect, it can in fact be easily abused by casting a larger than normal number of ANY level of spells, but it is always a lower number of overall spells when compared to the Core “Spell Slots Per Spell Level” system. It is just more flexible.
Lets examine the 18th level Core Sorcerer.
18th Level Core Sorcerer:
Slots per day: 0: 6 / 1: 6 / 2: 6 / 3: 6 / 4: 6 / 5: 6 / 6: 6 / 7: 6 / 8: 5 / 9: 3
Total Spells per day = 56
Total Spell Levels cast per day = 235 + 6 Cantrips
Lets compare that to the Spell Point System Sorcerer:
If the 18th Level Spell Point Sorcerer attempted to cast the full Core Sorcerer’s 56 spells, At Minimum Caster Level – NOT EVEN at full effective caster level, it would cost them …
423 SPELL POINTS!
If the 18th Level Spell Point Sorcerer attempted to cast the full Core Sorcerer’s 56 spells, At Full Effective Caster Level, it would cost them … (assuming all 1st-3rd level spells are cast at a 10th level effective level and all 4th-9th level spells are cast at the full 18th Caster level – which is being very generous…)
721 SPELL POINTS!
18th Level SP Sorcerer:
(PS: There are no SP bonuses for high stats. Your stat merely determines the maximum spell level you can cast and your Spell DC’s.)
SP’s Per Day = 253
Thus it is actually 14 9th level spells (253 SP / 17 per spell = 14.8).
Ok … So what?
The Sorcerer can cast 14 9th level spells (not many of which really have that much utility) and have 15 SP left over.
That’s enough to cast a 10th Caster Level 3rd level spell for maximum effect (9 SP), and a 2nd level spell at 6th caster level (6 SP).
Woo Hoo!
That’s a whopping total of 16 Spells for the day versus the normal Sorcerer’s 56!! They lose 40 Spells Per Day!
I think that is a more than balanced trade-off, especially since ¾ or more of those 14 Wail of the Banshees could just as easily have been taken care of with lesser spells.
Really??
A Core Sorcerer only gets 3. Real big loss there…
Oh and another thing, your beloved Psion? Gets the same “stupid” 2 1st level powers per day.
From AEG’s Magic: “As a design note, characters using the spell point system cannot cast as many spells per day as spellcasters using the core magic system. However, a spellcaster’s increased efficiency compensates for this shortcoming. In theory, a spellcaster need never worry about wasting a slot on a useless spell.”
For example a Sorcerer, under the original system having already used all their 3rd level spell slots, desperately needs to cast another Fly spell. To do so the Sorcerer has to burn a spell slot higher than 3rd level wasting a more powerful spell slot to cast a lower level spell.
Ok, now lest examine the PSION versus the Sorcerer.
An 18th Level Psion (assuming a key Ability of 19 and thus +32PP) has 179 Power Points.
The Psion uses the same cost in PP as the AEG system for SP:
SL.....Base
0.......Special
1.......1
2.......3
3.......5
4.......7
5.......9
6.......11
7.......13
8.......15
9.......17
Special: 3/day for free. For all beyond the 1st 3 = 1 SP each.
This means our 18th level Psion can cast 10 9th level spells per day with 9 points left over (either a 5th level, OR a 2nd and 3rd level, OR 3 2nd level, OR 9 1st level).
Where is the Psion’s 10 9th level spells so much better than the Sorcerer’s 14 9th level spells – especially when the Sorcerer is supposed to be able to cast more than a Wizard/Psion to start with?
The Psion also has the HUGE advantage of being able to cast their powers at FULL CASTER LEVEL with no more expenditure of points.
Say our 18th level Psion casts 10 9th level spells and then maximizes the number of spells per day by casting another 9 1st level spells. That’s 19 spells for the day.
Our 18th level Sorcerer casts his 14 9th level spells and then tries to cast the rest of their spells as the most powerful caster level 1st level spells he can. With the remaining 15 SP they can get:
2 1st level spells: 1 @ 10th caster level (10 SP) and 1 @ 5th caster level (5 SP)
or
3 1st level spells: all @ 5th caster level (5 SP each)
That’s 17 spells for the day at MAX! 2 LESS than the PSION!
So please….how is this spell point system for the Sorcerer so broken compared to the Psion?
Aside from that – its not MY system, it is a published system by “AEG”.
Originally posted by Eldorian
The inherent issue with ALL Point Systems is that it SEEMS to be a lot of spells and in effect, it can in fact be easily abused by casting a larger than normal number of ANY level of spells, but it is always a lower number of overall spells when compared to the Core “Spell Slots Per Spell Level” system. It is just more flexible.
Lets examine the 18th level Core Sorcerer.
18th Level Core Sorcerer:
Slots per day: 0: 6 / 1: 6 / 2: 6 / 3: 6 / 4: 6 / 5: 6 / 6: 6 / 7: 6 / 8: 5 / 9: 3
Total Spells per day = 56
Total Spell Levels cast per day = 235 + 6 Cantrips
Lets compare that to the Spell Point System Sorcerer:
If the 18th Level Spell Point Sorcerer attempted to cast the full Core Sorcerer’s 56 spells, At Minimum Caster Level – NOT EVEN at full effective caster level, it would cost them …
423 SPELL POINTS!
If the 18th Level Spell Point Sorcerer attempted to cast the full Core Sorcerer’s 56 spells, At Full Effective Caster Level, it would cost them … (assuming all 1st-3rd level spells are cast at a 10th level effective level and all 4th-9th level spells are cast at the full 18th Caster level – which is being very generous…)
721 SPELL POINTS!
18th Level SP Sorcerer:
(PS: There are no SP bonuses for high stats. Your stat merely determines the maximum spell level you can cast and your Spell DC’s.)
SP’s Per Day = 253
Thus it is actually 14 9th level spells (253 SP / 17 per spell = 14.8).
Ok … So what?
The Sorcerer can cast 14 9th level spells (not many of which really have that much utility) and have 15 SP left over.
That’s enough to cast a 10th Caster Level 3rd level spell for maximum effect (9 SP), and a 2nd level spell at 6th caster level (6 SP).
Woo Hoo!
That’s a whopping total of 16 Spells for the day versus the normal Sorcerer’s 56!! They lose 40 Spells Per Day!
I think that is a more than balanced trade-off, especially since ¾ or more of those 14 Wail of the Banshees could just as easily have been taken care of with lesser spells.
Really??
A Core Sorcerer only gets 3. Real big loss there…
Oh and another thing, your beloved Psion? Gets the same “stupid” 2 1st level powers per day.
From AEG’s Magic: “As a design note, characters using the spell point system cannot cast as many spells per day as spellcasters using the core magic system. However, a spellcaster’s increased efficiency compensates for this shortcoming. In theory, a spellcaster need never worry about wasting a slot on a useless spell.”
For example a Sorcerer, under the original system having already used all their 3rd level spell slots, desperately needs to cast another Fly spell. To do so the Sorcerer has to burn a spell slot higher than 3rd level wasting a more powerful spell slot to cast a lower level spell.
Ok, now lest examine the PSION versus the Sorcerer.
An 18th Level Psion (assuming a key Ability of 19 and thus +32PP) has 179 Power Points.
The Psion uses the same cost in PP as the AEG system for SP:
SL.....Base
0.......Special
1.......1
2.......3
3.......5
4.......7
5.......9
6.......11
7.......13
8.......15
9.......17
Special: 3/day for free. For all beyond the 1st 3 = 1 SP each.
This means our 18th level Psion can cast 10 9th level spells per day with 9 points left over (either a 5th level, OR a 2nd and 3rd level, OR 3 2nd level, OR 9 1st level).
Where is the Psion’s 10 9th level spells so much better than the Sorcerer’s 14 9th level spells – especially when the Sorcerer is supposed to be able to cast more than a Wizard/Psion to start with?
The Psion also has the HUGE advantage of being able to cast their powers at FULL CASTER LEVEL with no more expenditure of points.
Say our 18th level Psion casts 10 9th level spells and then maximizes the number of spells per day by casting another 9 1st level spells. That’s 19 spells for the day.
Our 18th level Sorcerer casts his 14 9th level spells and then tries to cast the rest of their spells as the most powerful caster level 1st level spells he can. With the remaining 15 SP they can get:
2 1st level spells: 1 @ 10th caster level (10 SP) and 1 @ 5th caster level (5 SP)
or
3 1st level spells: all @ 5th caster level (5 SP each)
That’s 17 spells for the day at MAX! 2 LESS than the PSION!
So please….how is this spell point system for the Sorcerer so broken compared to the Psion?
Last edited:
Eldorian
First Post
Holy crap dude, calm down. My post attacked the system, I don't care who posted it. Since you took it personal... I will try to remain impartial to who's posting, and just defeat the system.
I laugh at this. You seriously believe that an 18th level sorcerer can get full use out of his daily spell allotment? So, in a given day, you expect him to have use of 6 spells of each lower level? First off, in order for the sorcerer to want to cast a spell of a given spell level, he has to have a useful spell at that level. In a given day, the core sorcerer is supposed to encounter situations where he can use 6 spells of each spell level up to 6th? That's simply unreasonable, unless you have a VERY good spell selection, or you simply make due with weaker spells, and occasionally use higher level slots for lower level spells (which would invalidate your spell point arguement)
This is from your ealier post
So, what this says is that the sorcerer can effectivly increase his caster level by 2 for the cost that would normally be a Fortified Power. (which is a +25%, ie, half an empower). Lets pick on Cone of Cold. According to this system, cone of cold does 10d6, 35 average. For 2 power points, he could up the damage to 12d6, 42 average. with Fortify power, he could up the damage to 10d6 *1.25, 43.75 average. Hmm. Well. Poor psions, takes them a feat.
This doesn't really elicit a responce... I advocate removal of level based effects on spells.
First off, thanks for correcting my math. I aughtn't have said "almost" without knowing that they didn't get bonus points. I was off by a whole .2 of a spell.
I can't believe you seriously think that 14 9th level spells, at level 18, is inferior to 3 9th, 5 8th, 6 7th....
Lets consider a day in which you engage in 3 battles. Core sorcerer gets one 9th level spell off per battle. SP can get 4, if pressed. Even taking into account utility spells.. the MP guy could easily handle 2 9th level spells a fight. 2 ninth level spells can settle most fights. As for your "lose 40 spells per day!" arguement, they're casting 9th level spells there.. wail of the banshee, wierd, meteor swarm.. these spells win fights. They're basically cutting down the number of actions it takes to bring thier full power to bear. (you probably argue that haste makes you use up all your spells faster and that it is bad too...)
As for 3/4 of the wail of the banshee's being overkill.. So? The fact is that this sorcerer CAN OVERKILL. My sorcerer, who was based around empowered fireballs as his 9th level spell killer of choice, as well as wierd, would be able to toss 18d8 *1/5, 121 average damage delayed blast fireballs 14 times per day! He'd LOVE THAT =). Even doing half damage (which i wouldn't count on, he had greater spell focus evocation) I could, with my 4 spell per battle quota, do 240 damage to an area of effect each fight, all in 4 rounds. SIGN ME UP! That, or force people to save against 4 wierds.. not many oponents survive 4 death spells at 19+ cha+ spell foci.
I said:
You said
First off, I don't love Psions. Hardly ever play them. Thier multiple ability dependance ruins the class. As for the core sorcerer only getting 3 spells per day. First off, they get a bonus from high ability scores (unless you're a crappy sorcerer), upping that to 4. Each encounter should take up 1/4 of thier power, ie, one spell. The SP sorcerer only gets 2 points? so 1/4 of his power is what, a half a first level spell? I feel sorry for them, as I said before.
Funny, ya don't say? Hmm.. looks like the design notes for the 3e psion to me, only the sorcerer ended up more powerful.
Did you read this after you typed it? 14>10. in fact, it's 40% better. And the sorcerer casting more spells than psion.. well thats if he has his normal spell system. If he gets the psion's system, which has superior flexiblity (the psion's supposed strong point), then OF COURSE 14 is MUCH better than 10.
Are you smoking something? You're counting the change left over from casting powerful spells as part of the characters power? ooh.. 9 first level spells compared to 3 first level spells and 4 ninth level spells. Yah.. i totally see your point.
9 is in fact greater than 7....
Have you looked at the psion powerlist? This "Full caster level" stuff is mostly nonsense. Most psion powers don't scale with level, or if they do, it's only duration. Also, for psion damage spells, the spells do the equivalent of sorcerer damaging spells -1 caster level -1 per caster level, since they all deal a die lower in damage (compare 5d4 to 6d6, for whitefire and fireball respectivly, both 3rd level).
It can be summed up easily. The SP Sorcerer has Psion flexability, but with more points per day, and better spells.
I appologize if i got a little harsh at the end.. You did worse.
Eldorian Antar
Michael Morris
First Post
You guys seem to like to pick apart spell systems... Pick apart mine please...
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43297
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43297
