The spell Shatter used to sunder an object

[Kershek]

You answered your own question. The item is supressed. It is not non-magical. It's functions are supressed, just as an active spell is supressed in an anti-magic sphere.

So it's still magical. So you can't use shatter.

It would seem that if the magic is supressed then the magic keeping it from getting sundered is also supressed.

 

[Zaruthustran]

The only thing to remember is the keyword "brittle." By definition, most metal weapons are not brittle. Metal is a ductile solid, which is the opposite of brittle. Wooden items can be brittle, but not often. A brittle wooden weapon would shatter on impact, making it quite useless. The same goes for shields.

Combining shatter with cone of cold might do the trick but it's a GM's call. Shatter typically will only work on stone and glass.

Steel weapons can be brittle. It depends on the type of steel and the methods used in forging and tempering. A weapon that is "the opposite of brittle" would not be able to hold an edge; a soft weapon's edge would quickly deform into a blunt shape. Swords in particular tend to shatter in battle--a properly constructed sword will flex but will *not* bend.

Test: take a longsword. Place it on a pair of sawhorses, handle on horse, tip on the other. Add weight on the middle of the blade.
What happens: the blade will flex as weight is added, until it snaps. The blade will not bend.

Witness the opening scene of Fellowship of the Ring, when Elendil's sword Narsil was shattered. The shards of Narsil were shown again in Rivendell (in the scene where Boromir meets Aragorn).

That battle is fiction, but it does accurately depict how real swords break.

I think Shatter should be useful on most anything that can't be bent 90 degrees.
No: Cloth, leather, water, ooze, flesh, food, clay, armor, metal shields, soft plants.
Yes: Bladed metal weapons, glass, stone, wood, bone.

-z

 

[kreynolds]

It would seem that if the magic is supressed then the magic keeping it from getting sundered is also supressed.

Mord's Disjunction completely removes magic. Dispel Magic and Anti-Magic merely supress magic. There's a huge difference.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Steel weapons can be brittle. It depends on the type of steel and the methods used in forging and tempering. A weapon that is "the opposite of brittle" would not be able to hold an edge; a soft weapon's edge would quickly deform into a blunt shape. Swords in particular tend to shatter in battle--a properly constructed sword will flex but will *not* bend.

First fallacy: Soft = ductile.
Second fallacy: flex != bend

You mean "fail" when you say "bend". Ductility means an item can be deformed and will return to its original shape (+/- a few percent) by itself. This is what I gather you mean by "flex." However "bend" is a synonym in this case. Hardened staineless steel is still ductile. If you apply force to it, it WILL bend. Heck, you apply enough force to it, it will flow like taffy. But unless you apply stresses far beyond what it's designers ever intended, it should NOT shatter.

That does not mean it WON'T shatter. You can shatter anything, even water, if you apply enough force to it fast enough. Doing so causes a phase change in the material known as the ductile/brittle transition. Essentially you crystalize the material. However no weapon worth the name should be considered "brittle." Poor quality metal can be brittle. Cold metal can be brittle. A decent weapon should never be brittle at room temperature.

Test: take a longsword. Place it on a pair of sawhorses, handle on horse, tip on the other. Add weight on the middle of the blade. What happens: the blade will flex as weight is added, until it snaps. The blade will not bend.

I'll argue that. Gently applied force (i.e. stacking on 5lb weights every 5 seconds) should cause first flexure, then permament deformation, followed by failure. The degree of permanent deformation may be relatively low, but if you were to remove the weight once the material entered the plastic state, it would retain that "bend". Thing is you may only have 1-2 seconds while it is plastic.

Witness the opening scene of Fellowship of the Ring, when Elendil's sword Narsil was shattered. That battle is fiction, but it does accurately depict how real swords break.

I don't think Sauron can be used as any form of example. It's like saying "Then when Godzilla smacked the building around you can see how my fighter can kick in a door." Totally different orders of magnitudes. While real weapons can shatter like that; they tend to be made badly with sulferous or carbon deposits (It's not like they realized that tiny specs of charcoal mixing into the steel in the crude furnaces were actually making the metal better). Modern weapons should get nicked, chipped and bent long before they explode into glassy shards. Fact is, bending absorbs more damage than "exploding" not to mention protecting the weilder.

I think Shatter should be useful on most anything that can't be bent 90 degrees.
Yes: Bladed metal weapons, glass, stone, wood, bone.
-z [/B]

I'll argue wood as well; how the heck can a bow be brittle? Wood can vibrate for years without the slightest damage. (See "musical instruments")

 

[shilsen]

It seems to me that it can shatter multiple brittle objects, or one single non-brittle object.

Correct. The single solid object is affected "regardless of composition", so arguments about degree of 'brittleness' are unnecessary (hint to some posters on this thread ).

 

[kigmatzomat]

Yeah, I just went and read the SRD which has the line "any object weighing up to 10lbs/caster level of any composition." (but daggers, pocket knives and wooden toys are not going to shatter when in the 3' area burst.

So even a ductile sword can be blasted by shatter, making it perhaps the most powerful spell in the low-magic game I'm running since it's about the only "explosive" spell available to 95% of the casters.

 

[Caliban]

I once had a player successfully shatter the holy symbol of the evil cleric they were fighting. The cleric rolled a "3" on the will save, and lost the holy symbol.

Boy, did that change the nature of the combat. It went from a stand up fight to a chase, with cleric only slowing down long enough to inflict anyone who was close to him. They eventually beat him down though.

 

[Kershek]

Based on these replies, I may have Shatter in my 3rd level cleric's "always prepare" list. Lots of good uses. Plus, if he sees someone with alchemists fire/acid/etc. on their belt, or in their hand ready to throw, he could use the spell and shatter the glass and any others on his person.

 

[Zaruthustran]

First fallacy: Soft = ductile.
Second fallacy: flex != bend

I admit that your knowledge of metallurgy trumps my anecdotal and real-world experience. And, for what it's worth, the Sauron example was not intended to show what can cause a sword to shatter, but rather what a sword looks like when it does shatter (shards).

But I still maintain that swords can and do shatter. Specifically, that swords and like weapons are vulnerable to the magic spell Shatter.

-z, who probably shouldn't have tried to mix magic and science

 

[Zenon]

I once had a player successfully shatter the holy symbol of the evil cleric they were fighting.

Heh, my PC's just tried this last game, but unfortunately for them it didn't work (cleric made the save).

At least this doesn't totally nullify the cleric (like I remember it doing in previous editions). Only spells which have a Focus defined as a holy symbol, or a DF could not be cast.

I was proud of them for trying this tactic (as they were taking a major beating from the cleric's spells at the time).