The Suggestion spell

[Nail]

RAW-compliant or not, the comic was waaaaaaaay cool.

 

[Nail]

DM: Dragon saves at +4 for unreasonable request.

Irrelevant. The story set-up implies the dragon could only fail on a roll of "1". Such a roll has an outcome completely unaffected by circumstance bonuses.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Irrelevant. The story set-up implies the dragon could only fail on a roll of "1". Such a roll has an outcome completely unaffected by circumstance bonuses.

True. Which is kind of... odd. You have almost no hope of this working, and normally if you say something crazy it will fail, but in this case you have no reason not to try!

 

[Shadowdweller]

As a related question, do folks see skills such as diplomacy and bluff as coming into play in the casting of Suggestion? That is, can you use diplomacy to make an unreasonable request sound more reasonable? ("Listen, we've got your side outnumbered and we've already killed two of your compatriots; I suggest that you turn traitor and start working on our side, helping us kill the remaining schmoes!")

I personally do NOT see these skills as coming into play. As the example provided (suggesting that a pool of acid is actually a pool of water) seems to imply that the spell messes with the victim's perceptions already.

What is reasonable, in my mind, would be based more upon what the perspective of the victim is (e.g suggesting that a chaotic person betray their companions would be much more reasonable than suggesting that a lawful person do so). If I REALLY felt the need to complicate an already complicated game mechanic, I might CONSIDER allowing the caster to make a Sense Motive check to better determine what might be reasonable.

On the other hand, since by the RAW the ONLY effect "reasonableness" has is to PENALIZE the saving throw of the victim, I feel that it's probably best NOT to spend great amounts of time analyzing "reasonableness" in game.

 

[Staffan]

As a related question, do folks see skills such as diplomacy and bluff as coming into play in the casting of Suggestion?

I'd allow them to reduce the "unreasonableness penalty", but not to give the spell an actual save DC bonus.

 

[Shadowdweller]

I'd allow them to reduce the "unreasonableness penalty", but not to give the spell an actual save DC bonus.

Please note: As written, there is no "unreasonableness penalty" to the caster. Just a "reasonableness penalty" to the victim.

 

[Staffan]

Ah, I forgot. I would not allow Bluff or Diplomacy to push the suggestion into that territory.

 

[Nareau]

An interesting question all around. I can easily see bluff/diplomacy/intimidate turning an unreasonable request into a reasonable one. But I think I'd put a strict limit on it: either use a standard action to convince them, or keep your lie to simple concepts/short phrases.

I think that would make Suggestion more useful outside of combat. And while I'm usually really flexible about the whole "free action to talk in combat" thing, I don't like people to have full conversations while we're still in initiative.

Indeed, I might even prefer to see the social action/roll done as part of the Suggestion while in combat. Here are some examples of how to get your enemy to switch sides:

"Join us or DIE!" would be an Intimidate check.

"Do the right thing, help us!" would be Diplomacy.

"I saw that guy kissing your mom!" would be Bluff.

If the Suggester succeeds, the target thinks it's a reasonable Suggestion.

Spider

 

[ForceUser]

"Join us or DIE!" would be an Intimidate check.

"Do the right thing, help us!" would be Diplomacy.

"I saw that guy kissing your mom!" would be Bluff.

If the Suggester succeeds, the target thinks it's a reasonable Suggestion.

Spider

Not sure about Bluff or Intimidate, but I recall reading in the PHB that a Diplomacy check normally takes at least 10 rounds, but you can rush it if you accept a huge penalty (-20, IIRC). That seems fair for applying such a skill to a suggestion in a combat round.

Great discussion!

 

[ThirdWizard]

I definately would not allow a skill check. The timing is just too short. You arn't going to be able to add anything to the command to make it more reasonable or frightening or believable. You arn't saying "Why look at that cool lake. It's covered in algea, giving it a green tint, but it is actually quite the clear and beautiful water underneath. Why don't you go take a dip?" Which would be bluff. You're just saying "That lake is water. Take a dip." because you don't get a lot of time to start going expositional.

I might allow a Charisma ability check, but even then that would be pushing it by setting up a precedence I wouldn't be comfortable with, so its doubtful.