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The swinginess of low levels.

B.T.

First Post
Seeing the argument that "10% Hear Noise" equates to "10% chance to hear anything" reinforces my belief that 3e ruined D&D, most of all with its skill system. Instead of relying on common sense, everything was reduced to a skill check. Want to hear if orcs are behind the door? Roll a Listen check. Want to follow Bigfoot's tracks? Roll Survival (but only if you have the Track feat). Want to see if you can play a tune? Roll Perform.

Such a silly, stupid system. The skill system should be used in two ways: to gauge how well you do something and to determine if you can do something extraordinary.
 

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Seeing the argument that "10% Hear Noise" equates to "10% chance to hear anything" reinforces my belief that 3e ruined D&D, most of all with its skill system. Instead of relying on common sense, everything was reduced to a skill check. Want to hear if orcs are behind the door? Roll a Listen check. Want to follow Bigfoot's tracks? Roll Survival (but only if you have the Track feat). Want to see if you can play a tune? Roll Perform.

Such a silly, stupid system. The skill system should be used in two ways: to gauge how well you do something and to determine if you can do something extraordinary.

Well, if common sense were meant to be a part of actual play it would have been included in the RAW. :p
 

Easy - the wizard and the princess have had, all in all, about the same amount of combat training: nearly none.

The wizard on the other hand has seen some quite serious danger if he's anything other than the greenest PC.

Lan-"they went into the valley together, and one by one they never came out"-efan

Into the valley of death rode the fifteen hundred?

Seeing the argument that "10% Hear Noise" equates to "10% chance to hear anything" reinforces my belief that 3e ruined D&D, most of all with its skill system. Instead of relying on common sense, everything was reduced to a skill check. Want to hear if orcs are behind the door? Roll a Listen check. Want to follow Bigfoot's tracks? Roll Survival (but only if you have the Track feat). Want to see if you can play a tune? Roll Perform.

Such a silly, stupid system. The skill system should be used in two ways: to gauge how well you do something and to determine if you can do something extraordinary.

It's hardly 3e that's responsible - Murphy's Rules was talking that way about Hear Noise in the 90s.

And hearing if orcs are talking behind a door is a DC5 listen check. An untrained person can manage that 3 times in 4.
 

JamesonCourage

Adventurer
Seeing the argument that "10% Hear Noise" equates to "10% chance to hear anything" reinforces my belief that 3e ruined D&D, most of all with its skill system. Instead of relying on common sense, everything was reduced to a skill check.
The skill system certainly had its issues.
Want to hear if orcs are behind the door? Roll a Listen check.
I think Neonchameleon covered this: hearing people talk behind a door is DC 5, so someone with a +0 modifier and 0 ranks will succeed on a 5 or higher, so they'll make the check 80% of the time. If they are trained (like a thief might well be), they'll always succeed. So, something simple like hearing people talking isn't really an issue (though Listen has other issues -like understanding the people talking).
Want to follow Bigfoot's tracks? Roll Survival (but only if you have the Track feat).
The Track feat is required to find tracks of DCs higher than 10. So, a large creature, like Bigfoot, would be DC 9 in soft ground ("any surface soft enough to yield to pressure, but firmer than wet mud or fresh snow, in which a creature leaves frequent but shallow footprints").

Additionally, the 3.5 DMG (page 30) talks about circumstance modifiers: "Circumstances that make the task easier, such as a friendly audience or helpful environmental conditions, decrease the DC." So, if you rule that since Bigfoot is particularly heavy, you might lower the DC. It talks about giving swings of 2 to 20, so even if you gave a 4 DC decrease (2 for Bigfoot's weight, and 2 for his distinctive giant foot), the DC to track him becomes 5, which you can do even on firm ground ("most normal outdoor surfaces [such as lawns, fields, woods, and the like]").
Want to see if you can play a tune? Roll Perform.
Well, Perform DC 10 (which you can take without rolling) is a "Routine Performance" and thus probably is good enough for playing a tune with no particular talent.

Also, on page 62 of the 3.5 PHB, there's a sidebar at the bottom called "Character Skills". It says: "Your character may have solid familiarity with many skills, without having the actual training that grants skill ranks. Knowing how to strum a few chords on a lute or clamber over a low fence doesn't really mean you have ranks in Perform or Climb."

It goes on to say: "remember that no every use of a skill requires a skill check. Performing routine tasks in normal situations is generally so easy that no check is required. And when a check might be called for, the DC of most mundane tasks rarely exceeds 10, let alone 15. In day-to-day life, when you don't have enemies breathing down your neck and your life depending on success, you can take your time and do things right -making it easy, even without any ranks in the requisite skill, to succeed."
Such a silly, stupid system. The skill system should be used in two ways: to gauge how well you do something and to determine if you can do something extraordinary.
That's what skills in 3e were about; the last paragraph of the sidebar: "You're always welcome to assume that your character is familiar with -even good at, as far as everyday tasks go- many skills beyond those for which you actually gain ranks. The skills you buy ranks in, however, are those with which you have truly heroic potential."

The point of skills in 3.5 was to determine how well you do something (ignoring most mundane or everyday tasks, unless you're being threatened), and to determine if you can do something heroic (or, in your words, extraordinary). You may not like its execution, but perhaps you didn't know that following common sense and not rolling on easy stuff is actually normal and assumed for the game, not actually houseruling or fixing it.

I'm not trying to change your mind on 3.X's skill system -it has it's problems, for sure. And, I'm sure you see more problems with it than I do (even if I had to rip whole skills out and revise the rest). That's fine; but, I don't believe it's quite as bad as you made it out to be in your post. But hey, I'll agree to disagree, if you want to. As always, play what you like :)
 

B.T.

First Post
My point is that you shouldn't roll to hear orcs talking. You should put your ear to the door and hear orcs talking. If you want to make out what they're saying, then you should roll.

In my experience, few of the DMs I have played with have ever done the "no roll necessary" bit; most forced players to roll over stupid stuff, and most seemed completely unaware of the Take 10/20 rules. But perhaps I've just had bad DMs.
 

JamesonCourage

Adventurer
My point is that you shouldn't roll to hear orcs talking. You should put your ear to the door and hear orcs talking. If you want to make out what they're saying, then you should roll.

In my experience, few of the DMs I have played with have ever done the "no roll necessary" bit; most forced players to roll over stupid stuff, and most seemed completely unaware of the Take 10/20 rules. But perhaps I've just had bad DMs.
That all makes sense to me. I can see the appeal of less codified rules, in your case. As always, play what you like :)
 

Hussar

Legend
Well the thief only has a 10% chance to hear noise so he's mostly deaf anyway. I suppose that means that every other character is completely deaf.

Oh what the heck they're blind too except for the ones that have an infravision range listed on the character sheet because if it isn't on the sheet then it doesn't exist. :erm:


The hear noise thief ability is used in situations to try and hear something so faint, that only the trained ear can detect it. If those 10 orcs were all asleep then the ability would be checked to see if the thief heard their steady breathing. 10 awake and active orcs in a room should not require a hear noise check to detect.

Any character can listen at doors with a chance to hear regular activity.

Well, sure, IIRC, you had a 1 in 6 chance to hear anything through a door. Never minding things like earseekers and the like. However, I would point out that for some reason, Hobgoblins are entirely silent and you would never hear them (look in the DMG if you think I'm wrong).

But, I think this is where the problem lies. You interpreted the rules in a very, very generous way - automatic successes when you think it's appropriate. Of course, the rules disagree with you, but, apparently we're now into playing the "dueling versions of editions" game. :/

My point is that you shouldn't roll to hear orcs talking. You should put your ear to the door and hear orcs talking. If you want to make out what they're saying, then you should roll.

In my experience, few of the DMs I have played with have ever done the "no roll necessary" bit; most forced players to roll over stupid stuff, and most seemed completely unaware of the Take 10/20 rules. But perhaps I've just had bad DMs.

I'd probably agree with you. However, the DMG certainly doesn't.
 

Hussar

Legend
Just to point to what the rules ACTUALLY say,

1e DMG Preview on the WOTC site said:
LISTENING AT DOORS
In addition to the simple exercise of observation, many times characters will
desire to listen, ear pressed to a portal, prior to opening and entering. This
requires a special check, in secret, by you to determine if any sound is heard.
Because of this, continual listening becomes a great bother to the DM. While
ear seekers will tend to discourage some, most players will insist on having their
characters listen at doors at every pretense. First, make certain that you explain
to players that all headgear must be removed in order to listen. Those wearing
helmets will probably have to remove a mail coif and padded cap as well,
don’t forget. The party must also be absolutely silent, and listening will take at
least one round.
Silent creatures — undead, bugbears, etc. — will never be heard. Sleeping or
resting or alerted creatures will not be heard either. If there is something for the
listener to hear behind the door, the following probabilities will determine if any
sound is heard:
Race Of Listener Chance Of Hearing Noise
Dwarf 2 in 20 (10%)
Elf 3 in 20 (15%)
Gnome 4 in 20 (20%)
Half-Elf 2 in 20 (10%)
Halfling 3 in 20 (15%)
Half-Orc 3 in 20 (15%)
Human 2 in 20 (10%)
Keen-eared individuals will gain a bonus of 1 or 2 in 20 (5% or 10%). Use
chance of hearing a noise to determine if a character is keen-eared the first
time he or she listens at a door, and if it is indicated, tell the player to note the
fact for his or her character. Player characters will not initially have hearing
problems (as they wouldn’t have survived if they had them). During the course
of adventuring, great noise might cause hearing loss. Handle this as you see fit.
A loss of hearing might negate the chanc

So, no, the rules here are pretty clear. Hearing some orcs talking behind a door is most certainly not an automatic thing.
 



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