The TOO MUCH SETTING issue (SPIRE reviewed by SU&SD)

[Tun Kai Poh]

Recently, one of my favourite board game review channels, Shut Up & Sit Down, did a cracking review of SPIRE by Rowan, Rook and Decard.


Now, reviewer Quinns pointed out that while SPIRE has a terrific campaign concept, the sheer amount of lore and setting that players are expected to know, playing natives of Spire, can be overwhelming and he as a GM had a tough time explaining all of it. Plus, as he notes, in a typical Spire campaign, most of the party will be dead in two months!!

What other campaign settings have you folks seen that are like this, specifically where PCs are expected to be locals familiar with their world?

 

[hawkeyefan]

Recently, one of my favourite board game review channels, Shut Up & Sit Down, did a cracking review of SPIRE by Rowan, Rook and Decard.


Now, reviewer Quinns pointed out that while SPIRE has a terrific campaign concept, the sheer amount of lore and setting that players are expected to know, playing natives of Spire, can be overwhelming and he as a GM had a tough time explaining all of it. Plus, as he notes, in a typical Spire campaign, most of the party will be dead in two months!!

What other campaign settings have you folks seen that are like this, specifically where PCs are expected to be locals familiar with their world?

I’ll have to watch the video when I have a chance. I like Quinns as a reviewer, bit as a massive fan of Spire, I don’t think he’s being very fair.

While the book does have a ton of lore to draw upon, I don’t think the players or the GM needs to know more than the broad strokes. I certainly don’t! My campaign focused mostly on one district, with several factions involved. I overshare what the characters would know. It’s worked out just fine so far!

I find it comparable to Blades in the Dark. I think Spire presents more lore, but I think they do a great job of presenting it in such a way that it inspires rather than restricts.

 

[Tun Kai Poh]

I’ll have to watch the video when I have a chance. I like Quinns as a reviewer, bit as a massive fan of Spire, I don’t think he’s being very fair.

While the book does have a ton of lore to draw upon, I don’t think the players or the GM needs to know more than the broad strokes. I certainly don’t! My campaign focused mostly on one district, with several factions involved. I overshare what the characters would know. It’s worked out just fine so far!

Oh, it's a pretty positive review, he just felt he bit off more than he could chew by not restricting his campaign, and in fact he does recommend focusing the campaign on just one floor of Spire if you're starting out.

 

[Parmandur]

I think this is a real trap that published Settings can fall into, and the opposite is a big reason why the Forgotten Realms or Exandria are so popular: the lore is fairly easy for people to slip into generic fantasy assumptions already culturally encoded. Or Call of Cthulu, or Pendrafon, for that matter.

 

[TheAlkaizer]

I played a bit of Spire and I kind of agree. The game has other qualities, but its very evocative and rich setting is, in my opinion, it's biggest one. But fully appreciate it, you have to dive in. I love lore, so for me as a player it was easy to just read through all the lore sections a few times and come very prepared. But other players that didn't have this propensity did not seem to connect as deeply with the game as I (and other lorenerds) did.

As @hawkeyefan said, there's tricks you can use to limit that "problem". Focusing on one district and having the players be from another part; put them in the role of the outsider. There's also quite a few mechanics and abilities that allow players to simply make up stuff and mold the setting as the game goes on, but once again we noticed a difference in experience between those that delved in the setting and those that did not.

Some settings are really about their lore, characters, places and history (World of Darkness, Symbaroum, Spire, etc), these tend to require a bigger investment to get the sweetest they have to offer. Other settings are more about a concept, a mood or an idea (Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Forbidden Lands) and you can easily swap stuff in and out without affecting what makes the setting.

 

[Tun Kai Poh]

Some settings are really about their lore, characters, places and history (World of Darkness, Symbaroum, Spire, etc), these tend to require a bigger investment to get the sweetest they have to offer. Other settings are more about a concept, a mood or an idea (Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Forbidden Lands) and you can easily swap stuff in and out without affecting what makes the setting.

Amen! Come to think of it, I played in a very successful Eclipse Phase campaign that would not have worked if the majority of us weren't deeply immersed into how the world works...

 

[Grendel_Khan]

I think the reviewer is applying an overly trad perspective to Spire. As Howitt's said in at least one interview about the setting, their approach is "hooks, not history." So you won't find some sprawling timeline of key events or gobs of background lore you need to know to get started. All you need are the broadest strokes--high elves took over a Drow city at some point, and you want to take it back. That's it. Everything else, all those super cool hooks that every Spire book is packed with, you can pick up as a player as you go.

IMO one of the best things about Spire is that its setting is a box of compelling, evocative toys, that you're obviously supposed to play rough with and tear the heads off of. My campaign shouldn't really look or sound like yours, especially since each one might wind up focusing on a single tossed-away hook in a book (or books, now) packed with them.

 

[Voadam]

I played in a World of Warcraft RPG game having never played WoW and having no real knowledge of the world lore but owning the Manual of Monsters d20 book for use in my own d20 games. I played a jungle troll barbarian who did not have a background in anything outside of his homeland and was exploring the world with new friends who were all familiar with the setting lore.

It worked fine and I enjoyed it.

If I had tried to play a political insider dealing with faction politics it would have been a different situation with the DM and the information they provide being a big factor.

 

[Aldarc]

I’ll have to watch the video when I have a chance. I like Quinns as a reviewer, bit as a massive fan of Spire, I don’t think he’s being very fair.

While the book does have a ton of lore to draw upon, I don’t think the players or the GM needs to know more than the broad strokes. I certainly don’t! My campaign focused mostly on one district, with several factions involved. I overshare what the characters would know. It’s worked out just fine so far!

I find it comparable to Blades in the Dark. I think Spire presents more lore, but I think they do a great job of presenting it in such a way that it inspires rather than restricts.

I have heard you talk about The Spire many times, and I trust your sense that The Spire is a great game. I do find the setting to be a little too niche and involved for my taste, even if it boils down to oppressed drow versus the System. I agree, however, that there does tend to be some degree of special pleading where some reviewers have no problems with some vastly detailed lore-dense settings while chastising others for having similar levels of lore-density.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

I love The Spire, but there is a huge amount of strangeness for people to keep track of with the worldbuilding, that steps so far outside the realm of "baseline fantasy." At the same time, there are so many adventure ideas and hooks laced in the lore.

One thing that I think would be very useful would be a concise PDF of "what you know as a PC" to help make players feel more at home in the setting.