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The Trouble With Union
- Thread starter DCrane1
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rounser said:
That, in a nutshell, is my issue with the entire ELH. Rather than presenting rules for taking over cities, leading armies or ruling nations it just gave monsters that are twice as big, so to speak. 20th level is like 2nd level, only more so.
Yes, books from third party publishers covered those rules, but that’s isn’t the point. Or maybe it is, that the ELH was essentially just “second verse, same as the first, only louder.”
So Union is “bleah.” “Bleah” I tell you, “bleah.”
Sigil, at least was a crazy, impossible city where gods feared to tread. Union is just your average city on magical steroids. Why bother?
I wonder if anything will be made of Sigil.
Nifft said:
No, but man I could really go for some epic onion rings and an epic beer.
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
Ripzerai said:
I absolutely don't see how you could've gotten that kind of meaning out of that sentence. Let me put it like this: there are hundreds of other fantasy RPG cities out there, many if not most of them perfectly balanced for "realistic" play. The only real difference between Union and the average fantasy RPG city is that it isn't balanced like that. Why do we need yet another such city? Why must every single city be "realistically" balanced even though these are fantasy cities we're considering? That's what it sounds like you're saying - every fantasy RPG city city must be perfectly balanced according to what we find realistic here in the real world. Mundanity should not be a design goal for a fantasy city. Union is mundane if the main premise is removed, in the context of what is already in print. Most fantasy RPG cities are surprisingly mundane in the details, especially in utilizing the implications of common magic. The rest of your post about me somehow saying that every city needs to be populated by 20+ level characters to be different is so removed from anything I said that I can't really address any of it directly, as it has no bearing upon what I posted.
Someone mentioned 50th level dirt farmers. Err, why have farmers at all? That many powerful spellcasters couldn't come up with enough golems or constructs to perform menial tasks throughout such a city? I mean, do we really think about where all the mead and food comes from in Valhalla? It's just kind of there. At least in a city like Union, there is an actual quantifiable way to determine how all that stuff magically appears. The city would hum along on a foundation of powerful magic, negating the necessity for superheroic farmers and 29th level city guards. Taking the main premise and thinking about the implications of just what such characters can do reveals that such a city would be profoundly different from other cities we're used to, even in fantasy games.
Look at Hollowfaust. The main premise - necromancers run the city, but hey, it's actually a pretty nice place to live. Skeletons and zombies do most of the back-breaking work and even handle guard patrol duties. The designers thought about the implications of their premise, and came up with a unique and vital twist on the run-of-the-mill fantasy RPG city. The same is possible with Union. Why make yet another run-of-the-mill city - and yeah, there have been WAY too many such cities published - when a bit of thought can engender a really different take on the concept, one that could be among the most memorable places PCs ever visit? Watering it down by taking away the main premise - a city made up of epic level characters - seems pointless to me. Do that, and you might as well use any one of the various cities already available.
Plus, when it comes down to it, nobody has successfully done such a city before. Why not give it a shot? It's new ground to cover.
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ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
rounser said:
Yeah, and that's precisely what I wouldn't want. Union's main premise is brimming with potential, but the details need to be reworked. The whys and wherefores of how and why the inhabitants of Union are there needs to be reworked. Rystil Arden had a pretty cool idea above, for example.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
If I am EVER hired for WotC, a book on Sigil is #1 on my list of things to push on them.
Setting aside Planescape fan-dom, the planes have been a part of D&D for a long time, and Sigil has been a part of the planes. Using it as a base for planar adventures, or a city for injection into a standard game, is just SCREAMING to be done.
It doesn't have to be all Planescapey (though I'd certainly do references for the fans.
), we can make it into something that is obviously useful to "mostly-prime" DM's, or even just those who cherry pick items and powers and races and the like.I want to do this with every part of my body, including my pee-pee.
One of my biggest problems with Union (besides issues already mentioned in detail) is that the gods or big EPIC monsters haven't came by and knocked the place over. PS: I'm one of those who doesn't stat the gods, they do what they need to, no limits.
How could Union stay standing?
Possible reasons:
The mercanes have a big EPIC monster of their own to counter with (AKA the LoP syndrome)
The portal is too small
Something about Union itself repels them
or
The mercane, being the wheeling, sneaking little hagglers they are, made a deal with the Powers and Deities of Law, cosigned by many others, to make the place a neutral territory. So if anyone, even a chaotic who doesn't care about what deals they made, tries to move on Union, everyone else can gang up on them. If Hextor makes a move, not only with his brother stop him, so with almost every other Lawful Deity who wants to uphold a major contract of the planes. Same with everyone else. I figure at least one Demon Lord has gotten smacked down trying to take Union, and every other power player is watching to see who tries to make a move next. It's a tempting morsle in a very big trap.
How could Union stay standing?
Possible reasons:
The mercanes have a big EPIC monster of their own to counter with (AKA the LoP syndrome)
The portal is too small
Something about Union itself repels them
or
The mercane, being the wheeling, sneaking little hagglers they are, made a deal with the Powers and Deities of Law, cosigned by many others, to make the place a neutral territory. So if anyone, even a chaotic who doesn't care about what deals they made, tries to move on Union, everyone else can gang up on them. If Hextor makes a move, not only with his brother stop him, so with almost every other Lawful Deity who wants to uphold a major contract of the planes. Same with everyone else. I figure at least one Demon Lord has gotten smacked down trying to take Union, and every other power player is watching to see who tries to make a move next. It's a tempting morsle in a very big trap.
Volaran
First Post
I would agree with those who have said that boredom is the key problem with Union.
When I think of an interesting high level place, ENWorld resident SHARK's world comes to mind. In the empire of Vallorea, every butcher on every street corner might be a fighter in the 20-30th level range, but there will be a damned good reason for it, and a fine, lengthy backstory to listen to.
When I think of an interesting high level place, ENWorld resident SHARK's world comes to mind. In the empire of Vallorea, every butcher on every street corner might be a fighter in the 20-30th level range, but there will be a damned good reason for it, and a fine, lengthy backstory to listen to.
Gez
First Post
How to make a better City of Union?
First, make it stranger. It's a planar city of epic magic. It shouldn't be a normal city. Have the city be sentient or something. No incarnation of that sentience (it would be too Lady of Pain-esque), just treat the whole thing as a creature.
Second, when you have twelve thousand epic characters, you have zero epic character. If they want to be epic, they have to be rare. So, decrease population a lot, to the point where a DM could easily know all of the NPCs of the city (not counting possible lackeys and retainers).
Who's gonna sweep the trash out of the street? No one! The city cleans itself. Who's gonna quard the entries? No one! The city doesn't need sentinels. And so on. Who builds the mansions and palaces? No one! If the city deems you worth, it creates a home for you. If it wants you to leave, your building disappears.
Oh yeah, and no merchant of any kind. Everyone's already so rich and powerful they don't need anything. If you want to trade for something you can't do yourself, trade directly with the one guy in the whole universe you can -- it's not going to be something a fishmonger, even a 15th-level one, could sell you anyway or you wouldn't need to go to Union to find it.
First, make it stranger. It's a planar city of epic magic. It shouldn't be a normal city. Have the city be sentient or something. No incarnation of that sentience (it would be too Lady of Pain-esque), just treat the whole thing as a creature.
Second, when you have twelve thousand epic characters, you have zero epic character. If they want to be epic, they have to be rare. So, decrease population a lot, to the point where a DM could easily know all of the NPCs of the city (not counting possible lackeys and retainers).
Who's gonna sweep the trash out of the street? No one! The city cleans itself. Who's gonna quard the entries? No one! The city doesn't need sentinels. And so on. Who builds the mansions and palaces? No one! If the city deems you worth, it creates a home for you. If it wants you to leave, your building disappears.
Oh yeah, and no merchant of any kind. Everyone's already so rich and powerful they don't need anything. If you want to trade for something you can't do yourself, trade directly with the one guy in the whole universe you can -- it's not going to be something a fishmonger, even a 15th-level one, could sell you anyway or you wouldn't need to go to Union to find it.
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