D&D 4E The True Swordmage

[jmartkdr2]

I will have to investigate that... as the Eldritch Fighter feels like a dabbler for the most part stuck with meh spells.

I get the impression that the 5e team oft lacked empathy/understanding of what for me composed the greatest elements of 4e. I totally like some of their structural choices (even having the Warlord be Battlemaster with the right selection of maneuvers invokes the Tome of Battle classes and wouldn't be horrible if they actualy "GOT" the Warrior Lord and he could be an intellectual Tactician *without having the worst saving throws on the planet" and other mechanical conundrums as well as the rather sparse Warlord behavior. ).

Also SCAG?

The 4e swordmaged worked so well by accident.

In all other editions, any swordmage-y option was built using the wizard spell list. 4e's structure simply didn't allow or that: they had to make an all-new spell list specifically for swordmages. And so they made a bunch of swordmage spells that support playing as a swordmage.

But in 5e, they tell you to use the wizard (or sorcerer or warlock) list. But the wizard list isn't built for swordmages - it's built for wizards. As it should be, but that means a swordmage gets a list of spells that are designed for characters who are very much not swordmages.

Which is part of the reason I think you can't get a really good gish without a new base class.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You made a 5e Swordmage homebrew? I feel like I read it or read about it somewhere in the forums over the years, but I'd be curious to see it now.

Yep! It’s based on the concept of esoteric European sword manuals that treat science and fighting as intrinsically linked, and expanding that to include arcane magic. (Medieval Hermetic alchemy was as much about mysticism as it was about what we would now call science). the thread was active a few months ago, I’ll dig it up and link here later.

I did that with Aegis and subclass too, I totally agree with you for that.

Id love to see your take, if it’s far enough along toshare. Mine is probably about halfway finished but I feel like I need a different perspective on a few things.

The 4e swordmaged worked so well by accident.

In all other editions, any swordmage-y option was built using the wizard spell list. 4e's structure simply didn't allow or that: they had to make an all-new spell list specifically for swordmages. And so they made a bunch of swordmage spells that support playing as a swordmage.

But in 5e, they tell you to use the wizard (or sorcerer or warlock) list. But the wizard list isn't built for swordmages - it's built for wizards. As it should be, but that means a swordmage gets a list of spells that are designed for characters who are very much not swordmages.

Which is part of the reason I think you can't get a really good gish without a new base class.

I think a revised EK could do it just fine. It just needs some new spells so that there are decent range of thematically and mechanically appropriate options at every spell level, and my preference would be to, instead of relying on the SCAG cantrips, use a bonus action feature that changes how your next successful attack works, so they work with rather than against the fighter’s attack action. Maybe make that a fighting style, actually.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You made a 5e Swordmage homebrew? I feel like I read it or read about it somewhere in the forums over the years, but I'd be curious to see it now.

Here we go!

D&D 5E - Swordmage! (+thread)

Okay! This thread is here for the specific purpose of brainstorming and workshopping a 5e Swordmage, as an arcane half-casting warrior, whose primary identity is that of a warrior-scholar who either has invented or was trained up in a tradition of warcraft that makes martial prowess and magic...

www.enworld.org

 

[Jester David]

The swordmage is funky. Like most of the 4e role/ power source classes invented for that edition it was not particularly generic. It's almost better suited as a release in a campaign setting than a general book. Ditto the runepriest, seeker, battlemind, and the like. It's something that can really only exist in a 3e/4e era of releases, where non-generic classes are regularly released.

There's not even a good place for it to fit as a subclass as the wizard is too squishy and the fighter won't get enough magic.
Well... maybe. If it's treated less like the eldritch knight and more like an arcane archer, and lacks spells but has magical powers.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The swordmage is funky. Like most of the 4e role/ power source classes invented for that edition it was not particularly generic. It's almost better suited as a release in a campaign setting than a general book. Ditto the runepriest, seeker, battlemind, and the like. It's something that can really only exist in a 3e/4e era of releases, where non-generic classes are regularly released.

There's not even a good place for it to fit as a subclass as the wizard is too squishy and the fighter won't get enough magic.
Well... maybe. If it's treated less like the eldritch knight and more like an arcane archer, and lacks spells but has magical powers.

I disagree with the conclusion, although I prefer a full class.

IMO, the concept is more “generic” than any class Other than Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard.
It has a story, but that story can be as simple as “a warrior who treats arcane magic as a martial tradition, inventing spells that combine weapon use, physical movement, or specialized skill, with magical effects”.

Or as specific as my esoteric wandering weapon-master with a manual esoterica.

edit: point being that the 4e Swordmage is between the two in terms of how general and broad the thematic elements are.

 

[Jester David]

IMO, the concept is more “generic” than any class Other than Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard.
It has a story, but that story can be as simple as “a warrior who treats arcane magic as a martial tradition, inventing spells that combine weapon use, physical movement, or specialized skill, with magical effects”.

The gish class, yes. Which has been seen before as the spellsword. Or even the eldritch/ magic knight.
And you can do something pretty similar by mixing the ED and the wizard in a 3:1 ration, which is basically a 1/2-level caster like the paladin.

But the swordmage was really a 4e invention, and its aegis abilities, teleportation, and flavour are very non-generic. And a generic gish likely won't satisfy as that, as the OP says in his first post.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The gish class, yes. Which has been seen before as the spellsword. Or even the eldritch/ magic knight.
And you can do something pretty similar by mixing the ED and the wizard in a 3:1 ration, which is basically a 1/2-level caster like the paladin.

But the swordmage was really a 4e invention, and its aegis abilities, teleportation, and flavour are very non-generic. And a generic gish likely won't satisfy as that, as the OP says in his first post.

That isn’t a very specific concept, though. What you described is generic.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So, what makes a Swordmage?

Ignoring the fact that classes don’t need to do all the same things between editions, let’s look at what a close conversion would need.

Aegis: magical protection that also has active abilities, usually but not always reactive.

Attacks with weapons that are spells. Smite/ensaring strike style spells work, but more complexity and variety is warranted. “Throw your weapon and make a Melee weapon attack against all creature within 10ft of your target, and then all creatures within that space have to save vs spell-level-appropriate lightning damage. Any creature hit by your weapon attack has disadvantage on the save.”

Tactical teleportation. New spells or a class feature can handle this fine.

A Spellbook? Or was that an optional thing with a feat? Either way, it would help set them apart from other gishes.

The ability to attack with Int, and have good defenses without armor. Easy enough in 5e.

I really don’t see the difficulty. Give it the same flavor as in 4e, but split some stuff off into the defender/tank focused subclass, and then lean in other directions for other subclasses.

 

[jmartkdr2]

So, what makes a Swordmage?

Ignoring the fact that classes don’t need to do all the same things between editions, let’s look at what a close conversion would need.

Aegis: magical protection that also has active abilities, usually but not always reactive.

Attacks with weapons that are spells. Smite/ensaring strike style spells work, but more complexity and variety is warranted. “Throw your weapon and make a Melee weapon attack against all creature within 10ft of your target, and then all creatures within that space have to save vs spell-level-appropriate lightning damage. Any creature hit by your weapon attack has disadvantage on the save.”

Tactical teleportation. New spells or a class feature can handle this fine.

A Spellbook? Or was that an optional thing with a feat? Either way, it would help set them apart from other gishes.

The ability to attack with Int, and have good defenses without armor. Easy enough in 5e.

I really don’t see the difficulty. Give it the same flavor as in 4e, but split some stuff off into the defender/tank focused subclass, and then lean in other directions for other subclasses.

Spellbook was optional but a really good feat.

I think you left out "magically bond with your main weapon" (and/or "enchant you weapon yourself")

I could fluff this as coming form a lot of different power sources (wizardy-arcane, bardic-arcane, any sorcerer origin, most warlock patrons), although each would probably deserve a few specific abilities to reinforce the flavor - so there's your subclasses. I'd probably leave tanky/striker-y as build options from things like fighting style and spell selection.

 

[NotAYakk]

How would a 2/3 caster look?

1: L 1 spells
4: L 2 spells
7: L 3 spells
10: L 4 spells
13 : L 5 spells
16: L 6 spells
19: L 7 spells

But am lazy; a 5e swordmage that was a 1/2 or 1/3 caster would require inventing fewer spells...

The swordmage is funky. Like most of the 4e role/ power source classes invented for that edition it was not particularly generic. It's almost better suited as a release in a campaign setting than a general book. Ditto the runepriest, seeker, battlemind, and the like. It's something that can really only exist in a 3e/4e era of releases, where non-generic classes are regularly released.

The swordmage was released in a campaign setting book.