The Ultimate (A)D&D Kitbash

[RFisher]

My main choice is B/X and stealing little bits from everything else. Not really importing any subsystem wholesale from another edition so much as just borrowing things ad hoc.

If I ever wanted to separate race and class, I think I’d start with 2e w/o the optional rules. That means only the main four classes and no NWPs, among other things. I would swap demihuman level limits for XP penalties per the 2e DMG. Probably also swap in the B/X ability score modifiers. I’d be tempted to swap in the 1e Druid and Illusionist. Maybe allow the 2e Bard.

I’ve often toyed with playing primordial D&D. This is a two-pronged idea. (1) Try to imagine what some of the earliest Blackmoor/Greyhawk games were like long before the rules were published. (2) Try to strip away as much as possible yet still have enough that I think it’s worthwhile.

Along similar lines would be what I’ve called Levels. A minimalist game that takes the C&C / 4e idea of level (or half-level) being added to everything to an extreme. Becomes kind of like Risus or TWERPS. It needs more thought, but actually playing 4e has me questioning whether I want to develop those thoughts further.

Then there’s my 3.5 UA thoughts: Generic classes but Warrior and Spellcaster kill Expert and take his stuff. Simplified skill system like 4e. Level independent XP awards. Most likely scratching or tweaking a bunch of spells. (Perhaps stealing the spells from Decipher’s LotR.) Maybe spell points. 3d6 instead of d20. Maybe make combat more risky.

 

[Reynard]

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but this sounds remarkably like the 4e skill system to me.

Not at all. What I mean is this:

You know how the thief in 1e/2e has a set list of skills (Hide in Shadows, Find/Remove Traps, Read Languages)? Well, every class would have that, with base values and discretionary points.

Examples (off the top of my head):
Druid Skills: Animal Handling, (natural) Animal Lore, (supernatural) Beast Lore, Herbalism/Plant Lore, Rites, Survival.

Fighter Skills: Analyze Enemy, Appraise Weapons/Armor, Heraldry, Horsemanship, Leadership, Strategy & Tactics (battlefield).

Magic User Skills: Alchemy, Arcane Lore, Identify Enchantment, Monster Lore, Scribe Spell/Scroll.

Like that -- specific lists for each class. NWPs cover the general kind of background skills that flesh a character out and differentiate members of the same class (some NWPs would get axed if they turned out to be too close to a class skill).

 

[Derro]

I'm curious as to how a race which is not more powerful than any other is a power gamer race? Isn't the whole point of power gaming to gain more power than others, based on choices that are more powerful than other, supposedly equivalent choices?

Removed pointed and slightly pithy response to quote regarding the nature of power-gaming and 4e's role in the advocation of.

 

[Reynard]

You're so right.

Since 4e is at its baseline power-gaming how could a balanced race be anything but equal with all of the other power-gaming races.

I'm glad none of my preconceptions of 4e proved to be true.

Would it be too much to ask to not do this?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Hmm. I am not familiar enough with previous editions (before 3E) to say what I would "steal" from them.

I would certainly steal the core math from 4E, and the class concepts of all editions of D&D. But I am not sure what other mechanics to keep around, and I would probably tend more to steal from other game systems then D&D...

The idea of "class-unique" skills sounds interesting, but I think you might need a sensible multi-classing system or some none-class specific skills. (Otherwise you might ask "Why can my Ranger never learn Analyze Enemy?" and all this stuff. That might have been "okay" in previous editions, but today, people always have troubles with these kind of restrictions - And neither 3E nor 4E were "safe" from critique in that regard.)

 

[Fifth Element]

Would it be too much to ask to not do this?

Apparently. Any discussion that involves both 4E and other editions of the game seems to draw the threadcrappers.

I don't have time to go into full details about my ideal kitbash, but here's some highlights.

I love 3E multiclassing and prestige classes, though I think something would have to be done about the implications on spellcasting classes.

I like 4E's 'everyone has powers' design, it keeps all classes interesting at all times.

From 2E....um, well probably something. The variety of settings, for sure.

From 1E....boobs in the Monster Manual. More if I had time to think about it.

From BECMI, the immortal path stuff certainly. The introductory adventure in the PHB. Aleena.

Not sure what combat system to use. 3E/4E is probably too tactical for my tastes, but earlier editions were generally too reliant on DM fiat. Probably have to kitbash specific parts of several combat systems together.

 

[Derro]

Would it be too much to ask to not do this?

My apologies. I'll edit that right out. My ire lays not with your topic or 4e but rather with reactionary advocates who don't contribute to a thread but rather use it as a forum to further their own narrow views.

[horror]My GOD!!! What have I become?!?[/horror]

 

[Zustiur]

I think Reynard was reading my mind when he opened this topic. Since the first clear rumours of 4E came about I've been considering this exact exercise.
Here's my results:
Start with 3.5 and alter as follows:
* Saves become Defences – Your Defence value = old Save bonus +10. Attacks are made against this – (SpellDC-10) + d20.
* Points buy rather than dice stats, with a few standard arrays of that point value shown as examples.
* Cantrips, and possibly orisons are doubled on the per day charts.
* Remove natural armour items from any treasure I give out
* Add passive listen and passive spot to the character sheet.
* Consider grouping weapon proficiencies by type for martial weapons and simple weapons (only useful for non fighter types)
* Paladins would be restricted to their god’s alignment rather than LG
* Possibly reduce/remove the XP cost in creating items
* Replace dice roll typed damage (+1d6 fire) with fixed typed damage (+3 fire)
* Replace d% rolls with the appropriate value on a d20 roll.
* Use a greater number of ‘elite’ monsters (i.e. full HP instead of 50%)
* Simplify NPC tables (less feats & skills etc to prepare between games)
* Include the disease system from 4E
* Include the concept but not the mechanic of skill challenges
* Replace the poison system with a system like the 4E disease system
* Re-write grapple
* Consider restricting cross class, and non class skills at first level only – e.g. in your character’s past he would be likely to learn from a subset, but once he begins adventuring, he can learn anything that is appropriate

And that's about it. I like vancian spell casting a great deal more than I like the concept of retraining.
If someone yells "Hey Mr Wizard, use sleep!"
I much prefer to hear "Sorry, I don't have that prepared" instead of "I forgot how to cast that when I learned fireball"

 

[Shades of Green]

My ultimate version of D&D would probably be 3E at its heart but AD&D (1E/2E) in its body. I love the 3E core mechanic (1d20 plus modifiers vs. a DC) and I like how everything is integrated into it for the sake of simplicity. That also includes three saving throws tied to attributes, positive AC, and a more intuitive BAB rather than the THAC0 mechanic. However, I also like AD&D's simplicity, varied complexity between classes, less stats on the character sheet, and much simpler monsters.

So my ultimate version of D&D would use the 3E d20 mechanic for to-hit rolls, attribute checks, saving throws and skill checks, with positive AC, 3E-style BAB, and probably also a unified experience table for all classes (as in 3E). However I'd do away with feats (or make some of them class features with perhaps some choice and get rid of the rest), get rid of PrCs and greatly simplify the skill system. Weapon proficiencies would also follow the 2E approach with broad groups, specialization and a given number of "slots" depending on class. Non-weapon skills would either be class features (such as thief abilities) or non-weapon proficiencies with slots and no ranks using half your level as a modifier instead of ranks. I'd also get rid of most social/perception skills such as sense motive, diplomacy, spot, search, listen and so on and use old-school narrative exploration and role-played social interactions instead.

 

[TerraDave]

Pretty simple: 4E mechanics with (mostly) 1E flavour and a little O/B/X attitude.

If I was ambitious, I might try to put back some of the "broadning" that took place with leveling in pre 3E D&D. Going from charecters slightly simpler then the 4E standard at low levels...to adding things like followers, dominions, better epic destinies at high levels.