The Ultimate Dragon (Slaying) Quest - best level?

[Mercurius]

The 4E rules make it possible to face a dragon at pretty much any level, from a Young dragon in mid-Heroic Tier to an Adult dragon in early Paragon to an Elder dragon in late Paragon to an Ancient dragon in Epic tier. But is there a "best" time? Or is it all relative to the level the characters are at? Or is there a "sweet spot" for dragon-goodness?

The reason I ask is that the PCs in my group are all at 10th level and I'm planning out the Paragon tier trajectory. We just finished the first chapter of Tomb of Horrors and I'm wanting to use the next three chapters but probably not starting until 15th or 16th level. I will be modifying and fleshing out the "Acererak Plot" before then, but I'd also like to fit in a kind of archetypal dragonslaying quest either before then or later, around 20th level, but I like the idea of doing before.

The basic gist of the quest is this: About a hundred years ago a thriving dwarven city was utterly destroyed by a powerful dragon. Heroes have tried to take the city back, including a small dwarven army, but they were all destroyed. More recently one of the great heroes of the land sought to slay the dragon but has not been seen since. Now the "secret" (and it is a good thing that none of my players read this board, afaik) is that it is not one dragon but two: an old red dragon female and her younger male blue dragon consort.

Depending upon the PCs level when they get there, the two will be: early-to-mid Paragon Tier: Adult Blue/Elder Red, or late Paragon-to-early-Epic Tier: Elder Blue/Ancient Red. I'd like to set the adventure up so that they are way out of their league to face the Red, but can win through via trickery or some sort of magical dragon-slaying artifact. I might have them first go on a shorter quest to find an artifact that will help them slay the dragon. I also like the idea of them sneaking in and somehow imprisoning or killing the Red, or collapsing a cave upon her...that sort of thing.

But the key is that I want them to face the Blue and just barely defeat him and think they are home free and ready to loot the lair (they would face the Blue outside of the ruined city, which is within a mountain, of course!). As they explore the city they would come across clues that Something Is Still Alive Down There, and I would build up the suspense until they come across the massive red beast. They will realize--probably due to her size--that they are over-matched.

One of the things I love about 4E, and what I forgot when I started writing this, is that it is easy to modify monster levels so that an Adult Blue, for instance, doesn't have to be 13th level, or an Elder Blue doesn't have to be 20th. I could make an Adult Blue be in the 15-16 range, and then I could make the red be an Elder dragon of at least 22nd level.

So let's say that the PCs, currently on the cust of Paragon Tier (10th going on 11th), ran a preliminary "dragon slaying artifact quest" that took them up to about 12-13th level by the time they face the Blue dragon, who would be 15-17th level - a nice combat, I would think. Simply killing the Blue would probably bring them up to 13-14th level. So here's a question: How could a party of 5-6 13-14th level characters possibly kill an Elder Red Dragon of 22nd level? What sort of artifact would that require? Or is that too big of a gap?

As a secondary question, what sort of "Ultimate Dragon Slaying Quests" have you run? Can you share a brief plot outline?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

So let's say that the PCs, currently on the cust of Paragon Tier (10th going on 11th), ran a preliminary "dragon slaying artifact quest" that took them up to about 12-13th level by the time they face the Blue dragon, who would be 15-17th level - a nice combat, I would think. Simply killing the Blue would probably bring them up to 13-14th level. So here's a question: How could a party of 5-6 13-14th level characters possibly kill an Elder Red Dragon of 22nd level? What sort of artifact would that require? Or is that too big of a gap?

As a secondary question, what sort of "Ultimate Dragon Slaying Quests" have you run? Can you share a brief plot outline?

This is just my experience, but you should not use solos of significantly higher level than the PCs. (Or really, any monster; I once TPKed a party using mainly vampire spawn minions of about 2 levels over the party.) This is due mainly to the high ACs, which seem to have a bigger effect than the high hit point totals.

I've only run one dragon encounter, a 4th-level black dragon vs a 1st-level party in Raiders of Oakhurst. It was the first solo encounter I ran, and I temporarily developed a hate on for solos before I learned it was the high AC that was the real problem. (The solo boss for Keep on the Shadowfell had the same problem. The solo boss for Cairn of the Winter King is only one level higher than the PCs at adventure start, and I doubt that would be a problem to run.)

No rules-based artifact could save them. You'd need to throw down some temporary to-hit bonuses (for attacks and spells). Some sort of flavor text dragon-slaying ritual maybe? I've not run an Essentials dragon. They look like they do the whole "solo thing" much better, but they can grab the PCs too easily IMO. (Based on looking at the math, not from experience.)

 

[jester_gl]

My take on a dragon-weakening artifact would be something that would make her younger. Take her from Elder red to Adult red, maybe temporarily. If they knew the effect is temporary, they would be stressed because of the need to kill her quickly before she regains all her powers.

 

[Quickleaf]

I like your set up! I've only run 2 dragons at high heroic, so take this with a grain of salt. One of those was a modified 12th level Fettered Dracolich that the 9th level pcs faced... on an open battlefield. The pcs witnessed the dracolich get summoned when they were only 2nd level after a botched attempt to stop a ritual, so this fight had been looming over them for a long time. I knew it had the potential to be a TPK, so I gave them a few (too many) extras... First, during the campaign they found the dracolich's phylactery which was a puzzle prop I made that could only be opened near the dracolich - it had the power to negate one of the dracolich's powers per round with the right combo of sigils, but that required standard action and healing surge...later in the fight it was used to pin the dracolich's wings so it couldnt escape. Second, the pcs managed to convince nobles to lend them archer minions (the battle took place during a siege), which dealt an extra 5-10 damage per round against the dracolich. Third, they used some awesome daily utilities at the start. The battle opened with the dracolich killing most of the cavalry, routing the rest, and flinging the cavalry's mortally wounded prince commander (an old ally of the pcs) 30 feet through the air... The bard ended up stopping the rout, allowing cavalry to hold a line so pcs could focus on just the dracolich without dealing with waves of minions. And the cleric healed the wounded prince (and kept him alive) so the pcs gained an allied npc for the fight. IOW they were swimming in power-ups for a seven on one solo fight. I think one pc nearly died, but otherwise the pcs kicked the dracolich's asstail. I think a level 20 dracolich would have been been too much, though I could see presenting an "ancient dracolich" as a multi-part encounter where the pcs face skill challenges and hazards to evade, slow down, and weaken it with the dracolich's final level determined by their successes (though no harder than L+5).