The Ultimates: Homeland Security

[Mog Elffoe]

It seems that you've certainly made up your mind, Villano, and that's too bad. I can definitely understand boycotting Millar's work for the reasons you stated, but you're missing out on some great comics by skipping Ultimate Spider-Man.

BTW, do you have a link or anything to the stuff you posted about Millar? It certainly does sound like something he'd say, and I'd like to read some more.

Thanks!

 

[Villano]

It seems that you've certainly made up your mind, Villano, and that's too bad. I can definitely understand boycotting Millar's work for the reasons you stated, but you're missing out on some great comics by skipping Ultimate Spider-Man.

BTW, do you have a link or anything to the stuff you posted about Millar? It certainly does sound like something he'd say, and I'd like to read some more.

Thanks!

I don't live near any comic shops. The closest thing is a Barnes & Nobles in NY. Next time I get up there, I'll try to pick up a Spider-Man TPB.

I've seen Millar say these things on several websites, but I only have a link to one. It's super political (lots of "Hitler" and "Nazi" analogies), so I don't want to post it. I've seen too many sites go up in flames when politics is discussed and I don't want to do that here. If you want it, I'd rather e-mail it to you. I tried to use the PM or e-mail by clicking your name, but I get a message that I'm not authorized to use that function. Am I doing something wrong, or is that down? :\

BTW, just to put things in perspective with my dislike of Millar, I'd also refuse to buy anything produced by someone who said anti-semetic or racist things or was just a plain jerk. I know there are people who say that you should separate the art from the artist. I can accept that. I just don't think I should have to help them make their livings.

I'm not telling people here not to buy the book because of the way I feel. If you enjoy it, good for you. I might even now be reading a comic written or drawn by someone you think is a jerk.

 

[Mog Elffoe]

I've seen Millar say these things on several websites, but I only have a link to one. It's super political (lots of "Hitler" and "Nazi" analogies), so I don't want to post it. I've seen too many sites go up in flames when politics is discussed and I don't want to do that here. If you want it, I'd rather e-mail it to you. I tried to use the PM or e-mail by clicking your name, but I get a message that I'm not authorized to use that function. Am I doing something wrong, or is that down? :\

I just set up my profile so you can either download my 'v-card' or message me via Yahoo! Messenger. Whatever works for you.

Thanks!

 

[Villano]

I just set up my profile so you can either download my 'v-card' or message me via Yahoo! Messenger. Whatever works for you.

Thanks!

I downloaded your V-Card and sent you an e-mail. Sorry it took so long, but we had a thunderstorm here and the phone line went down, and with it my internet access. It just came back up.

 

[AFGNCAAP]

Well, I'm ambivalent about the Ultimates. I love some of the costume redesigns (like Cap's & Thor's), but hate others (like the Iron Man suit). Some of the stories have been interesting, but then again . . .

Part of me really feels that Ultimates is basically the Avengers done Authority-style. In a way, I feel that one of the key factors of why Ultimates is selling is just due to Millar's name being attached--not for his writing, not for the story in the books, but just for his name. Not much different than someone years ago picking up whatever Todd McFarlane had his named attached to.

 

[DarkSoldier]

I tried to use the PM or e-mail by clicking your name, but I get a message that I'm not authorized to use that function. Am I doing something wrong, or is that down? :\

You have to be an ENWorld donor to use the Private Message, Who's Online, and Search features.

 

[beta-ray]

I haven't read any of the Ultimate series. I have to say that I really don't like this idea. It's sort of like they wanted to do a Crisis On Infinite Earths, but didn't have the guts to go through with it. Now, you have this little Pseudo-Marvel Universe, kind of like the 2099 line (and Ultimates will probably join it and the New Universe in a few years). Either reboot the continuity or don't.

Well, that's fine if you don't like the idea... but I don't think the only way to do it is reboot or don't, nor do I see it as a lesser "Crisis"... Just a different method. Hard to judge the motivation of the creators. I don't know if you can really judge it if you haven't read it.

Honestly, I don't read the Ultimate line... I read a lot of other comics and just haven't decided to invest the money into it. *shrug*

Also, there's something else that bothers me that I can't articulate. It's like this weird "Best Of..." series that's feeding off the good stuff while cutting out everything the fans aren't familiar with. I flipped through one of the Spider-Man TPBs and Peter appears to be dating Mary Jane and it looks like she knows he's Spider-Man. Part of what made those characters interesting is that they grew over time. Just cutting to the "good parts" loses something. Just buy the "Essential" TPBs and you'll get all the good parts there.

Well it's also there to give people the opportunity to buy those issues without spending tons of money. Not everything is continuity driven in comics. I don't know which of the "Best of" compilations you saw, but often they are in order, taking chunks of storylines. Maybe you just picked up a more recent collection?

There's a website dedicated to black superheroes. Don't ask me for the URL, I don't have it saved. I lost interest in it due to one idiot constantly posting really stupid and racist things (like how there are so few black characters in fantasy films because it's "a white man's fantasy that there are no black people" or that all comic publishers are involved some bizarre conspiracy to distance black superheroes from their audience by doing things like having Blade cut his hair in a way that no black man would ).

Not sure what this has to do with anything...

Anyway, they asked comic professionals why black superhero comics never sell well. One answer was quite interesting. He pointed out that, aside from Wolverine, nearly all superheroes are from the Golden Age or were created by Stan Lee.

That kind of shocked me because it looks to be true. Granted, in some cases you have a character like the Flash who is a modern character (or Silver Age depending on when Kid Flash was created), but the name "Flash" has the Golden Age history.

I'm not sure if it speaks ill of the audience, who won't accept anything new, or the writers, who don't have the talent to create anything original that's good.

Truth to be told, most comic writers couldn't cut it if they had to try writing a novel or a screenplay.

*shrug* Different mediums... why is the comparison relevant? And since you said most, maybe that's true. But some can and do. Also, the reverse may be true as well.

A lot of people have praised the Punisher maxi-series Welcome Back, Frank. However, having recently read it, it really isn't that good. Most of it doesn't seem to go anywhere (you only really needed 6 issues to tell this story, not 12) and a lot of it is just trying to be gross or shocking ("Lick my scabs!"). And, let's face it, the humor just wasn't that funny. A fat guy who gets stuck in his doorway and has a lot of heart attacks? A guy with piercing who does nothing other than say, "Spacker Dave!" for 99% of the book? There's no great writing here.

Anyway, the Ultimates line is like Hollywood's remake machine. As someone said in the other thread, these classic movies are classic for a reason. The same is true for the comics.

Oh well, sorry for the rant. I now return this hijack to it's regular thread.

I don't fully understand the comparison to the remake machine entirely... At least they are indicating the new line of comics in the title... No one is saying that they are trying to overtake the classics (though Ultimate Spider-Man is doing VERY well)... Maybe these comics are not for you, but I fail to see how they are somehow WRONG.

 

[beta-ray]

Ehhh, after reading this thread I'm starting to think that my decision to stay out of comics was a good one.

Aw that's too bad, comics could use more readers...

Cannibalistic Hulk?!? Hank Pym beating his wife? There's realism, and then there's taking a dump all over the characters. Take a show like Homicide: Life on the Street. There was only one, MAYBE two characters who had flaws anywhere NEAR the flaws which these characters have. Yet wasn't that show gritty and realistic? Realism doesn't require that you make the characters' complete bastards.

Wow how long have you been out of comics? Though it may not have been a beating, Hank Pym did hit his wife in the "normal" Marvel U. That's probably where they got it.

Eh, I don't know. To often, phrases like "gritty realism" are used as if they're always synonymous with brutal characters, grotesque actions, and the frequent use of swear words. If that were the case, then movies like Hellraiser, which feature plenty of gore and human depravity, would be considered far more gritty and realistic then movies like Seven, which shows very little gore, and only has one depraved human who rarely makes an appearance until the end. That's not mature storytelling. That's what a 12-year-old thinks is mature storytelling.

Ah well. I've still got to get my mitts on back issues of Transformers: The War Within.

Not that it's "gritty realism" but i find it funny that you have a graphic of Dr. Weird in your post... talk about depravity! And I LIKE ATHF...

 

[Mog Elffoe]

Ehhh, after reading this thread I'm starting to think that my decision to stay out of comics was a good one.

I agree with beta-ray (dude needs to get a horse avatar...)--there's no need to give up on comics just because one title doesn't sound like it'd be your cup of tea. That's like giving up on movies altogether because you decided to go to the theater to see Freddy Got Fingered.

There are plenty of comics out there that are not 'brutal and grotesque' and are still good reading.

 

[Mark_Aurel]

The problem is that I've already read these stories in the regular Marvel Universe. It's like buying a "best of tape" for a series I've already seen.

Well, with the Crisis, people got over it pretty fast. The problem is that, as you pointed out, DC has done numerous reboots. Now, you have Zero Hour and Hyper-Time and all that crap.

If Marvel would do one good reboot and have the writers stick to it (unlike the mess that the post-Crisis Hawkman caused), people would adapt. If they kept pulling a Zero Hour every five year, then you would have problems.

Anyway, I don't think I'd read Ultimates anyway since Millar is writing it. I'll never read any of his books because:

He's been quite vocal with his Anti-American statements. I won't go into them here since politics are off-limits. But I don't want to support a guy in his efforts to play out his prejudices.

Also, the man has no respect for superhero comics, such as descibing Superman is really a villain and saying, "Could Superman really be described as a hero when all he ever did was reinforce the world's unjust status quo?" and describing Batman as an "Al Qaeda-like figure" (I seemed to have missed the issue where Batman kills thousands of people and advocated the abuse and degradation of women).

On top of that, the guy is just a fruitcake. He's said some really strange things like how he lives in Scotland and has never seen a black person and wants to date a black woman for the "novelty" of it. Er, yeah.

Okay, I normally lurk, but I felt I had to respond to this last part, since it seems pretty inaccurate, at least in parts.

Mark Millar is, as far as I can tell, a very, very big Superman fan. He loves Superman. He wrote Red Son, which is one of the best Superman stories to appear in recent years. It's close to a perfect rendition of Superman. Mark Millar has also been writing Superman Adventures, the comic version of the Superman Animated Series - and he's done a good job at it.

A few years ago, there was talk about doing a big Superman revamp. Four writers got together with a proposal for DC for the elements that needed to change in order to make the Superman titles better. The four writers were Mark Millar, Mark Waid, Grant Morrison, and Tom Peyer. All those writers have a great deal of love for Superman. Mark Waid co-wrote Kingdom Come, and is the current writer of Superman: Birthright. Grant Morrison showed his appreciation for the character in the pages of JLA. And Mark Millar did Red Son. For a while, there was some speculation that Mark Millar would be doing the script for the Superman movie, based on the strength of Red Son.

Finally, Mark Millar and Bryan Hitch have a stated goal of getting a Superman run a few years down the line - both are very eager for it, because they love Superman.

Any report that Mark Millar hates Superman or thinks Superman is a villain would more than likely either be a misunderstanding or a crock.

As for 'Anti-Americanism,' he's Scottish, and his father was engaged in left-wing politics. I've never seen Millar express any specific hatred or malice towards the USA, however. Different perspective or worldview than an American? You bet. Portraying Americans or American superheroes as being not any more perfect than the rest of us? Sure. Not reading a book because the author comes from a different political background than yourself sounds a bit narrowminded, to be honest.

As for living in Scotland, he does. And that line about black people sounds like some throwaway joke more than anything else. I can imagine that Millar might have a more ... coarse sense of humor than you or I do. Most Scottish people I've met do.

And I really, really like the Ultimate books.