The Ultimates: Homeland Security

[Villano]

There's four "Ultimate" series, Spider-man, X-men, Fantastic Four and the Ultimates themselves (who are kinda the Avengers.) The point of them was to take established comic book characters, and hit "reset" so to speak with the continuity. Telling the same basic story's again, but updated, without all the baggage of 30+ years of past continuity. Let the characters be teenagers again, like they were initially.

I haven't read any of the Ultimate series. I have to say that I really don't like this idea. It's sort of like they wanted to do a Crisis On Infinite Earths, but didn't have the guts to go through with it. Now, you have this little Pseudo-Marvel Universe, kind of like the 2099 line (and Ultimates will probably join it and the New Universe in a few years). Either reboot the continuity or don't.

Also, there's something else that bothers me that I can't articulate. It's like this weird "Best Of..." series that's feeding off the good stuff while cutting out everything the fans aren't familiar with. I flipped through one of the Spider-Man TPBs and Peter appears to be dating Mary Jane and it looks like she knows he's Spider-Man. Part of what made those characters interesting is that they grew over time. Just cutting to the "good parts" loses something. Just buy the "Essential" TPBs and you'll get all the good parts there.

There's a website dedicated to black superheroes. Don't ask me for the URL, I don't have it saved. I lost interest in it due to one idiot constantly posting really stupid and racist things (like how there are so few black characters in fantasy films because it's "a white man's fantasy that there are no black people" or that all comic publishers are involved some bizarre conspiracy to distance black superheroes from their audience by doing things like having Blade cut his hair in a way that no black man would ). Anyway, they asked comic professionals why black superhero comics never sell well. One answer was quite interesting. He pointed out that, aside from Wolverine, nearly all superheroes are from the Golden Age or were created by Stan Lee.

That kind of shocked me because it looks to be true. Granted, in some cases you have a character like the Flash who is a modern character (or Silver Age depending on when Kid Flash was created), but the name "Flash" has the Golden Age history.

I'm not sure if it speaks ill of the audience, who won't accept anything new, or the writers, who don't have the talent to create anything original that's good.

Truth to be told, most comic writers couldn't cut it if they had to try writing a novel or a screenplay. A lot of people have praised the Punisher maxi-series Welcome Back, Frank. However, having recently read it, it really isn't that good. Most of it doesn't seem to go anywhere (you only really needed 6 issues to tell this story, not 12) and a lot of it is just trying to be gross or shocking ("Lick my scabs!"). And, let's face it, the humor just wasn't that funny. A fat guy who gets stuck in his doorway and has a lot of heart attacks? A guy with piercing who does nothing other than say, "Spacker Dave!" for 99% of the book? There's no great writing here.

Anyway, the Ultimates line is like Hollywood's remake machine. As someone said in the other thread, these classic movies are classic for a reason. The same is true for the comics.

Oh well, sorry for the rant. I now return this hijack to it's regular thread.

 

[Desdichado]

I understand, Villano. I also totally disagree. Not only are the Ultimates the best things Marvel's done in years (IMO, anyway) they're also the best selling, acording to industry publications. I think the Ultimate universe is here to stay, at least for quite a while.

Frankly, all those years of continuity has created a lot of baggage, most of it incredibly corny. It's nice to see it done away with.

 

[Welverin]

As far as the series' 'nastiness' goes my major gripe is with the Hulk eating people. Sorry, but he can't be a hero I can root for in any fashion after eating people.

I'd say it's a mistake thinking of him as a hero to begin with, though as I recall Bruce was rather dsigusted with the fact he did that himself.

Very sad to hear about the hiatus. They're trying to drive me to Ultimate Spider-Man, aren't they, the finks.

I think it's a better book anyway, so give it a try. It's rather different from The Ultimates, so I won't guarantee you'll like it, but t is highly likely.

Hey, might as well ask here... At comic shops, I've seen paperbacks called "Ultimate Team-Up" and "Ultimate Five", something like that.

Mog already covered UMT, but didn't mention Ultimate Six (not Five), so I'll cover that. US was a mini-series about Spidey and and his main enemies having a reunion. I want to say it's just the Ultimate version of Sinister Six, but I don't think I'm familiar with the original to say for sure.

I haven't read any of the Ultimate series. I have to say that I really don't like this idea.

I really suggest you actually read some of the books, I'd suggest starting with the first USM TPB.

It's sort of like they wanted to do a Crisis On Infinite Earths, but didn't have the guts to go through with it.

Problem with this is it would have pissed off all the readers of the existing books. After all doesn't DC get a lot of flak for there numerous reboots?

Also it was originally intended to be for newer readers and anyone else put off by thirty years (or more) of continuity that was impossible to get a handle of with out reading for a long time.

Now, you have this little Pseudo-Marvel Universe, kind of like the 2099 line (and Ultimates will probably join it and the New Universe in a few years).

Well it's already a few years old and doesn't seem to be slowing down any, so long as they don't oversaturate the line and the quality stays as high as it has been there's no danger that it will diappear.

 

[Mog Elffoe]

I can see where you're coming from, Villano, but if they're good stories why not enjoy them for what they are?

The 2099 and New Universe lines went away because they didn't sell well (I don't know exact numbers, and what was considered a profitable book back then is probably way different than nowadays.) The Ultimate line of books are consistently at the top the of the charts. I'd be willing to say it's at least partially because they're good books. I remember back in the day when those NU books came out. I got every one of them. The first six or so issues of Star Brand were pretty good, what with John Romita Jr doing the artwork, and I really liked a lot of the ideas and concepts in DP7, but the rest of those books simply were NOT GOOD. I did pick up a few of the 2099 books. Spider-Man 2099 had a few moments that were so-so and I liked the concepts for the Doom 2099 book, but again the rest were just NOT GOOD and these two slipped in quality very fast. Quality talent is currently working on the Ultimate titles and that shows. I don't always like everything they do but their track record isn't bad at all. I don't see the Ultimate books going away any time soon at all.

I LOVE the Essential books Marvel's been putting out. I LOVE reading the classic Spider-Man stories. I also LOVE Ultimate Spider-Man. There's no reason not to enjoy the best of both worlds, man.

 

[Welverin]

I LOVE the Essential books Marvel's been putting out. I LOVE reading the classic Spider-Man stories. I also LOVE Ultimate Spider-Man. There's no reason not to enjoy the best of both worlds, man.

This reminded me of the fact that when USM first started it was the first good Spidey book Marvel had put out in years.

 

[Green Knight]

Ehhh, after reading this thread I'm starting to think that my decision to stay out of comics was a good one.

Cannibalistic Hulk?!? Hank Pym beating his wife? There's realism, and then there's taking a dump all over the characters. Take a show like Homicide: Life on the Street. There was only one, MAYBE two characters who had flaws anywhere NEAR the flaws which these characters have. Yet wasn't that show gritty and realistic? Realism doesn't require that you make the characters' complete bastards.

I did some checking up, and I just had to laugh when I read a couple of reviews of some Ultimate issues, where the reviewer is effusive about the "realism" of the story, and in the same breath he's talking about how Pym, after beating Janet, unleashes a horde of ants on her. Yeah, whenever I'm beating my wife I make sure to take the time out to agitate the hell out of a swarm of ants to get them to attack her. :\ Or how Betty Ross left Banner for Freddie Prinze Jr. Or Nick Fury slipping Captain America the Undercover Brother Formula. WTF? Does ANY of that even sound REMOTELY realistic? Raise your hand if your girlfriend's left you for Freddie Prinze Jr., or any other Hollywood star, or if you think the government works on things like Undercover Brother Formulas.

Eh, I don't know. To often, phrases like "gritty realism" are used as if they're always synonymous with brutal characters, grotesque actions, and the frequent use of swear words. If that were the case, then movies like Hellraiser, which feature plenty of gore and human depravity, would be considered far more gritty and realistic then movies like Seven, which shows very little gore, and only has one depraved human who rarely makes an appearance until the end. That's not mature storytelling. That's what a 12-year-old thinks is mature storytelling.

Ah well. I've still got to get my mitts on back issues of Transformers: The War Within.

 

[your father is]

^I felt exactly the same way as you, but ULTIMATES got me back into comics after a ten year absence. It simply rocks. I cannot wait for the Hard Cover.

But don't take my word for it -- read issues #1 - 3 free right here.

 

[billd91]

Ehhh, after reading this thread I'm starting to think that my decision to stay out of comics was a good one.

Cannibalistic Hulk?!? Hank Pym beating his wife? There's realism, and then there's taking a dump all over the characters. Take a show like Homicide: Life on the Street. There was only one, MAYBE two characters who had flaws anywhere NEAR the flaws which these characters have. Yet wasn't that show gritty and realistic? Realism doesn't require that you make the characters' complete bastards.

I did some checking up, and I just had to laugh when I read a couple of reviews of some Ultimate issues, where the reviewer is effusive about the "realism" of the story, and in the same breath he's talking about how Pym, after beating Janet, unleashes a horde of ants on her. Yeah, whenever I'm beating my wife I make sure to take the time out to agitate the hell out of a swarm of ants to get them to attack her. :\ Or how Betty Ross left Banner for Freddie Prinze Jr. Or Nick Fury slipping Captain America the Undercover Brother Formula. WTF? Does ANY of that even sound REMOTELY realistic? Raise your hand if your girlfriend's left you for Freddie Prinze Jr., or any other Hollywood star, or if you think the government works on things like Undercover Brother Formulas.

I think you're relying on other people's reviews too much without checking it out for yourself. Some of the stuff you're talking about here isn't too accurate. Betty doesn't leave Banner for Freddy Prinze, Jr. They were already estranged before that. Undercover Brother Formula? I've read the issues and I think someone's mistaking banter for real events. Flaws in their character? Most of them already had these or similar flaws, it's just that they are being emphasized in the Ultimates story line (or don't you remember Pym having serious psychological issues that actually did leave him to hit his wife and the estrangement of their marriage? Or Tony Stark's alcoholism and Don Juanism? Or Cap's occasional stiff-necked attitudes? Or Hulk's irrational violent impulses?).

 

[DanMcS]

I did some checking up, and I just had to laugh when I read a couple of reviews of some Ultimate issues, where the reviewer is effusive about the "realism" of the story, and in the same breath he's talking about how Pym, after beating Janet, unleashes a horde of ants on her. Yeah, whenever I'm beating my wife I make sure to take the time out to agitate the hell out of a swarm of ants to get them to attack her. :\ Or how Betty Ross left Banner for Freddie Prinze Jr. Or Nick Fury slipping Captain America the Undercover Brother Formula.

Read the comics, not someone's snide "review". There is nothing anywhere about an undercover brother formula.

The Betty Ross date with FPJr thing occupied about 4 panels, and was amusing to me- you have superheros who have public acknowledgement and government backing. They are going to end up as celebrities. Take that and run with it for a minute, and you get the X-Men on the cover of magazines (from some of the UXM comics), the Ultimates visiting the white house for dinners, talk amongst the troops about movie deals, dating other celebrities, and stuff like that. After they beat the crap out of the Hulk, the DVD of the fight (as filmed from SHIELD choppers, I guess) became a best-seller. It was snide commentary on society.

I liked it, anyway.

 

[Villano]

I really suggest you actually read some of the books, I'd suggest starting with the first USM TPB.

Also it was originally intended to be for newer readers and anyone else put off by thirty years (or more) of continuity that was impossible to get a handle of with out reading for a long time.

The problem is that I've already read these stories in the regular Marvel Universe. It's like buying a "best of tape" for a series I've already seen.

Problem with this is it would have pissed off all the readers of the existing books. After all doesn't DC get a lot of flak for there numerous reboots?

Well, with the Crisis, people got over it pretty fast. The problem is that, as you pointed out, DC has done numerous reboots. Now, you have Zero Hour and Hyper-Time and all that crap.

If Marvel would do one good reboot and have the writers stick to it (unlike the mess that the post-Crisis Hawkman caused), people would adapt. If they kept pulling a Zero Hour every five year, then you would have problems.

Anyway, I don't think I'd read Ultimates anyway since Millar is writing it. I'll never read any of his books because:

Also, Millar usually presents military types as being unsavory, unscrupulous, or both. I'm not in the military myself or anything, but it comes across clear to me that Millar is biased against the U.S. and also military types in general.

He's been quite vocal with his Anti-American statements. I won't go into them here since politics are off-limits. But I don't want to support a guy in his efforts to play out his prejudices.

Also, the man has no respect for superhero comics, such as descibing Superman is really a villain and saying, "Could Superman really be described as a hero when all he ever did was reinforce the world's unjust status quo?" and describing Batman as an "Al Qaeda-like figure" (I seemed to have missed the issue where Batman kills thousands of people and advocated the abuse and degradation of women).

On top of that, the guy is just a fruitcake. He's said some really strange things like how he lives in Scotland and has never seen a black person and wants to date a black woman for the "novelty" of it. Er, yeah.