The undefeated monster

[Bullgrit]

There is a place protected by a great, terrible, and awesome guardian. The existence of this creature is well known in legends and tales around campfires, but even sages are not completely sure exactly what it is. Divination magic fails to reveal useful information.

Many adventurers before you have tried to defeat it and get past it, but no one has ever returned in victory. Very few have even returned at all, and they relate no reliable information about the creature or their battle. It has been undefeated for all the centuries it has been known of.

Your party of adventurers is considering taking on this challenge. You know the location, and you have a means of getting there.

But should you? Can you take on a centuries-undefeated monster? Should you gain a few levels before going to it? How many should you gain?

Metagame questions:
[The monster in question *is* a real creature -- it is not a trick or metaphor or riddle, or anything like that. It is an actual being with game combat stats.]

What level is such a creature? Can PCs level up to be able to defeat it? If you were playing a PC in this game, at what level would you consider taking on the battle?

* * *

What got me thinking about this was the trope: "No one has ever returned alive!" I've seen this rumor mentioned in an adventure for 1st-level characters. And there are similar concepts/adventures that begin with the PC party having to overcome some challenge no one before them has been able to overcome. Was the party just more powerful (higher level) than those who tried before?

This thinking lead me to considering whether there could be, should be, can be a challenge that is actually, in the game world, truly undefeatable. I mean, there are examples of PCs defeating gods throughout D&D's history. Is it possible for something to be beyond the PCs no matter how powerful they get? Is it a good idea to include such a thing in a campaign world? Should there be some challenge that exists beyond PC ability to match it?

And how many PCs would perish attempting to beat it? How early, (level), would most PCs start considering tackling it?

If PCs first heard of this thing when they were level 10, would they soon go after it? Is there the expectation, (trope), that the PCs will only hear of things they can overcome? Would it be a reversal of the trope, maybe even "unfair," to throw the PCs a plot hook that they can't and shouldn't bite on?

Bullgrit

 

[the Jester]

This is a very interesting topic. In each case, I think the answer to your question comes down to "Depends on the campaign."

In some campaigns, you'll have this background for a monster that 1st level pcs seek out and defeat. To me that is... ugh. Yuck.

In others, the players know not to expect a monster to be something they can beat just because they encounter it. That is more my style.

 

[Nagol]

As a player, I would start seeking out more information. Direct information may not be forthcoming, but indirect information should be such as the approximate power of those who didn't return, their typical combat strategies, and weaknesses, if any.

I would probably start probing the edges of the region once I got to within a level or two of the previous groups with divinations centred on summoned creatures and predictive divinations. I wouldn't stage an assault until more information was gleaned around the nature of the opposition.

 

[Bullgrit]

As a player, I would start seeking out more information. Direct information may not be forthcoming, but indirect information should be such as the approximate power of those who didn't return, their typical combat strategies, and weaknesses, if any.

I would probably start probing the edges of the region once I got to within a level or two of the previous groups with divinations centred on summoned creatures and predictive divinations. I wouldn't stage an assault until more information was gleaned around the nature of the opposition.

Is this how you usually approach adventures?

Bullgrit

 

[Corathon]

The answer to this is probably going to vary a lot from game to game, and even from place to place within a game world.

In some hick town in the back of the beyond "Nobody has ever returned alive" shouldn't dissuade low level characters. This probably means that 2 farmboys, a poacher, and a woodcutter wandered into the monster's domain and died for their troubles.

OTOH, if something is known throughout a good chunk of the world - and has been for centuries - as unbeatable, it should be something that can only characters of unparalleled skill could handle. Or it should be beatable only via some special item or knowledge. Otherwise the continued existence of such a being is unreasonable.

What is meant by "characters of unparalled skill" will vary a lot also. In 1E terms it probably means levels in the high teens or the low twenties. In 4E maybe it just means "epic tier".

 

[Corathon]

Additionally, IMO, its completely OK for players to hear of an adversary that they cannot beat yet - and may never be able to defeat. I think that the tarrasque was meant to be just such an unbeatable monster when first introduced in 1E.

 

[steeldragons]

There is a place protected by a great, terrible, and awesome guardian. -snip- It has been undefeated for all the centuries it has been known of.

Your party of adventurers is considering taking on this challenge. You know the location, and you have a means of getting there.

But should you? Can you take on a centuries-undefeated monster? Should you gain a few levels before going to it? How many should you gain?

Defeating the impossible is part and parcel of becoming a hero of legend. Of course you should go after it!...when you're powerful enough.

As to "what is it?" That's really up to you...my first thought reading the description was something like a sarlac or Scylla...something that, even when you encounter it...how to defeat it is not really...feasible. It has no attackable external body, you don't know anything about how big it actually is...or where it might be vulnerable...

Then there's always the tarrasque...Something like that that you could have just not be asleep for centuries at a time...

Is it "defeatable"? Yes....Does that automatically translate to "it can be killed"? Not necessarily.

Metagame questions:
-snip-

What level is such a creature? Can PCs level up to be able to defeat it? If you were playing a PC in this game, at what level would you consider taking on the battle?

What level is the creature? I really couldn't say. Off the charts would be my initial reaction.

If I were a PC in this game...I probably would not feel confident attempting to face it until...let's say somewhere from 12-15th level (in a 1-2e game, how that translates to other systems I do not know)[/quote]

Is it possible for something to be beyond the PCs no matter how powerful they get? Is it a good idea to include such a thing in a campaign world? Should there be some challenge that exists beyond PC ability to match it?

Of course it's possible! It's a game of fantasy...imagination...DM's the limit, as it were.

Is it a good idea for the game world? Depends on the world, I guess. I don't see a reason why not.

Should there be a challenge beyond the PCs no matter their power? Again, that's a decision for the DM and the kind of world and kind of campaign you're running...and perhaps most importantly, what your players want for their characters.

Does someone want to rule the world?...command all of the dragons in the world? ...become a god?...become the ONLY god there is left?

And how many PCs would perish attempting to beat it? How early, (level), would most PCs start considering tackling it?

Whether or not you perish in the attempt is simply up to how smart/effectively a player runs their particular character. Unless you want to create a "kobayashi maru" creature...but I imagine that would tick a LOT of PCs off...

For me, like I said, I'll start thinking about it 12th-15th level...preferably with about 6-8 other individuals of comparable level.

If PCs first heard of this thing when they were level 10, would they soon go after it? Is there the expectation, (trope), that the PCs will only hear of things they can overcome?

Not in my game. But that's a DM-to-DM kinda basis.

Would it be a reversal of the trope, maybe even "unfair," to throw the PCs a plot hook that they can't and shouldn't bite on?

I don't think it's "unfair." Knowing when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em, when to throw the fireball and when to run, is essential to PC (or "P and C", for that matter) development.

--Steel Dragons

 

[Nagol]

Is this how you usually approach adventures?

Bullgrit

Ones not time bound, yes.

 

[SkidAce]

Is this how you usually approach adventures?

Bullgrit

In a way it should be.

There is a big difference between deciding to investigate a monster that has slain wandering shepherds and ex army guys, and one who has killed legendary heroes and such.

I know (in character usually) I wouldn't go after a monster with such a legend if I heard it had killed Achilles, Hercules, and Conan.

I would probably wait a while....hehe.

 

[Umbran]

This thinking lead me to considering whether there could be, should be, can be a challenge that is actually, in the game world, truly undefeatable. I mean, there are examples of PCs defeating gods throughout D&D's history.

Yes, but those are hardly universal. In most (but not all) of my campaigns, the gods are not just unbeatable, but actually unassailable, even in theory. Not only can the PCs not beat them, they cannot even actually challenge them - the gods cannot be reached by living mortals, except by prayers.

It is my understanding that most campaigns don't run from 1st level to the top of the game - most campaigns end before reaching the absolute ultimate power characters can reach. So, most of the time there's a practical upper limit to what characters will be able to handle before the campaign ends.

I don't have a problem with taking that from "practical impossibility" to "theoretical impossibility", given how rarely the difference will actually come into play.

What the players expect depends on your GM/player communications. This is really a pretty basic setting question, and the GM should take action to set expectations before the campaign even begins.